# A Few Q's on Mycorrhizal Relationships **URL:** \ **Category:** Nature Talk\ **Tags:** question\ **Created:** [November 25, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720 "2024-11-25T20:13:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![edith1111](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/edith1111/32/36875_2.png) [@edith1111](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/edith1111)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/1 "2024-11-25T20:13:48Z")
Here are a few questions I have I wasn’t able to find answers to online. I also reached out to the local mycological society but I think I’ve dipped too deep in the well… 1. How do mycorrhizal fungi and their hosts identify each other? 2. From Wikipedia: “about 80% of land plants species rely on mycorrhizal relationships with fungi to provide them with inorganic compounds and trace elements.” What do the other 20% that don’t rely on those relationships have in common? 3. Do gymnosperms have mycorrhizal relationships? 4. Out of the plants that have mycorrhizal relationships, are those exchanges necessary for survival for the plants and fungi or do they simply enhance each organism’s ability to access what it needs? (Edit: I think I can answer this myself at least partially. Some mushrooms definitely depend on certain trees) ---
**Author:** ![pisum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/91b2a8/32.png) [@pisum](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/pisum)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/2 "2024-11-25T20:20:12Z")
why do you want to know this information? ---
**Author:** ![edith1111](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/edith1111/32/36875_2.png) [@edith1111](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/edith1111)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/3 "2024-11-25T20:27:23Z")
I have become very interested in nature since Covid, and as I learn more, I have more/deeper questions (I’m self-taught and have experience tutoring AP Biology, but I’m not in the field professionally). I’m especially interested in connecting dots and understanding interrelatedness and evolution, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![pisum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/91b2a8/32.png) [@pisum](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/pisum)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/4 "2024-11-25T20:49:42Z")
> [@edith1111](#): > > From Wikipedia: “about 80% of land plants species rely on mycorrhizal relationships with fungi to provide them with inorganic compounds and trace elements.” What do the other 20% that don’t rely on those relationships have in common? look at where this assertion comes from, and i think that article may answer or point your way towards the answers to your questions. here’s a link to a non-paywalled version of the article: [https://docslib.org/doc/6509401/phylogenetic-distribution-and-evolution-of-mycorrhizas-in-land-plants](https://docslib.org/doc/6509401/phylogenetic-distribution-and-evolution-of-mycorrhizas-in-land-plants). ---
**Author:** ![elpatitojuan2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ec9cab/32.png) [@elpatitojuan2](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/elpatitojuan2)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 12:27am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/5 "2024-11-26T00:27:56Z")
> [@edith1111](#): > > Do gymnosperms have mycorrhizal relationships? According to me, yes. Many species associate to pines. Edit: this study talks about it:[https://www.fs.usda.gov/rm/pubs\_journals/2024/rmrs\_2024\_dyshko\_v001.pdf](https://www.fs.usda.gov/rm/pubs_journals/2024/rmrs_2024_dyshko_v001.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![jasonhernandez74](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/jasonhernandez74/32/33615_2.png) [@jasonhernandez74](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/jasonhernandez74)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/6 "2024-11-26T01:42:38Z")
And, yes, I found the answer to the follow-up question I was going to ask: are there marine mycorrhizae? [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42535-024-01029-5](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42535-024-01029-5) Now, this is interesting because “mushrooms” are a terrestrial phenomenon. As far as I know, no aquatic fungi form mushroom-type fruiting bodies. ---
**Author:** ![henryy1355](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/henryy1355/32/7573_2.png) [@henryy1355](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/henryy1355)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 4:10am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/7 "2024-11-26T04:10:46Z")
[Psathyrella aquatica](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41395677_Aquatic_gilled_mushrooms_Psathyrella_fruiting_in_the_Rogue_River_in_southern_Oregon) ---
**Author:** ![Ec0pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@Ec0pete](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/Ec0pete)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 4:25am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/8 "2024-11-26T04:25:47Z")
I know the answer to one of your questions, 3. Do gymnosperms have mycorrhizal relationships? Yes they do. When I worked for Queensland forestry years ago we were growing “yellow pines” from the southern US and the Caribbean. We found we had to collect leaf litter from Mississippi forests to get the right mycorrhiza. Unfortunately introduced some pathogens as well ---
**Author:** ![jhbratton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/jhbratton/32/3718_2.png) [@jhbratton](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/jhbratton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 10:09am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/9 "2024-11-26T10:09:19Z")
Q 4: Mycorrhizae aren’t always necessary. For example, ploughing destroys the mycorrhizae but we can grow crops in ploughed fields. But we have to drench the soil in fertiliser to make up for the lack of mycorrhizae. It has been shown (I think for bird’s-foot trefoil _Lotus corniculatus_ and common blue butterfly _Polyommatus icarus_) that some herbivorous invertebrates can’t complete their life cycle on food plants that lack mycorrhizae. ---
**Author:** ![ljazz](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/ljazz/32/22872_2.png) [@ljazz](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/ljazz)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 9:47am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/10 "2024-11-27T09:47:55Z")
1. Plants exude chemicals into the ground. Mycorrhizal fungi search for this chemicals and enter the host plant. These chemicals are exuded for many different reasons (allelopathy, communication w/ other plants, making the soil more suitable for extraction of nutrients etc.), but in most group the relationship is deep enough that plants make these chemical specifically to attract the fungi. In some plant groups the relationship is deep enough that the embryo in the seed is innoculated, so the plant is never without its fungus. 2. mostly that they grow in places fungi do not. One of the most prominent plant groups without mycorrhizae are Brassicaceae, which mostly grow in hevaily disturbed habitats with initial soils (gravel bars, rock crevicess etc.), where fungi are rarer, and more stressed about life. In such environments, the fungi would take more than they would provide, so the plant has no incetive to enter mycorrhizae. OR alternatively, they grow in places where there is no benefit from having a fungus attached to you. benefits of mycorrhiza for the plants is increased availability of water and nutrients, in places where those are abundant _and_ the competition is low, there is also no point. 3. Yes. not only them, but also ferns, lycopods, liverworts and mosses. Mycorrhiza is something that has been happening since before the plants had roots. 4. depends on the fungus and the plants. For some, the the relatioship is necessary (Orchids cannot complete their life cycle without a fungus, although many adult orchids are capable of living without one (and in fact are then fungus parasites, as the fungus enables them to germinate, but when they become photosynthetic, they sever the connection, giving nothing back to the fungus). Many Ericaceae have obligate mycorhhiza where both parters need eachother - that is why they are capable of colonising the extreme habitats, such as bogs and heaths) Some mycorhizal fungi can also live without a plant, many cannot. Some relationships are very specific (a species of plant and a species of fungi), some are not (a fungus can host many plant species, and a single plant species enter mycorrhiza with multiple fungi). So the mycorhhiza can be obligate (necessary) or facultative (optional) for one or both of the partners. Bonus fact: Many pararsitic plant are actually not direct parasites on other plants, but actually parasitise fungi ( all parasitic orchids and all parasitic ericoideae), which in turn have to take more nutrients from their symbiotic parter to support the parasite. (although for some of those relatioships, there is a possibility that the non-photosynthetic plant does provide some sort of service to the fungus and the trees around, possibly by reducing pressure from herbivores/fungivores through multiple possible routes). ---
**Author:** ![phma](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/phma/32/54376_2.png) [@phma](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/phma)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 10:01am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/11 "2024-11-27T10:01:40Z")
I recently observed a mushroom that appears to be _Suillus_ and a pine cone within a few meters of each other. They are both at home, so I obscured the locations, which means anyone else sees them several kilometers away from each other. Some species of _Suillus_ associate with particular species of pine. Should I link the observations so that identifiers can look at the pine and identify the mushroom or vice versa? ---
**Author:** ![andreass1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/andreass1/32/37391_2.png) [@andreass1](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/andreass1)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/12 "2024-11-27T14:36:10Z")
I think it would be better to just write into the notes of the _Suillus_ observation what tree species you found nearby, generally good practice for mycorrhizal mushroom observations :) > [@ljazz](#): > > mostly that they grow in places fungi do not. One of the most prominent plant groups without mycorrhizae are Brassicaceae, which mostly grow in hevaily disturbed habitats with initial soils (gravel bars, rock crevicess etc.), where fungi are rarer, and more stressed about life. In such environments, the fungi would take more than they would provide, so the plant has no incetive to enter mycorrhizae. > OR alternatively, they grow in places where there is no benefit from having a fungus attached to you. benefits of mycorrhiza for the plants is increased availability of water and nutrients, in places where those are abundant _and_ the competition is low, there is also no point. I can add to this that a lot of non-mycorrhizal plants have specific strategies to acquire nutrients without relying on fungi, e.g. carnivorous plants or cluster roots in Proteaceae. [This relatively recent scientific review](https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nph.14976) is a quite comprehensive summary of this and many other questions related to mycorrhizal fungi and their host plants. ---
**Author:** ![edith1111](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/edith1111/32/36875_2.png) [@edith1111](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/edith1111)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/13 "2024-11-28T22:32:38Z")
The paper @pisum linked to mentions hornworts and liverworts having mycorrhizal relationships too, which was an interesting surprise. ---
**Author:** ![edith1111](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/edith1111/32/36875_2.png) [@edith1111](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/edith1111)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 10:48pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/14 "2024-11-28T22:48:57Z")
Thank you and @ljazz for your thoughts on #2. I assumed plants that did not associate with fungi had special adaptations to be self sufficient, but it sounds like several factors, including lack of competitors in an environment and availability of nutrients, allow some species to thrive on their own. And I have been fascinated by mycoheterotrophy too. And the fact that symbiosis and parasitism occur every way imaginable across and within kingdoms. ---
**Author:** ![edith1111](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/edith1111/32/36875_2.png) [@edith1111](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/edith1111)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/15 "2024-11-28T22:50:29Z")
Thanks so much for the link. The first page in and of itself has a lot of great information. ---
**Author:** ![jasonhernandez74](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/jasonhernandez74/32/33615_2.png) [@jasonhernandez74](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/jasonhernandez74)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 2:02am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/16 "2024-11-29T02:02:58Z")
> [@edith1111](#): > > hornworts and liverworts having mycorrhizal relationships too That makes me wonder if, in a sense, lichens are algae with “mycorrhizal” relationships. ---
**Author:** ![ljazz](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/ljazz/32/22872_2.png) [@ljazz](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/ljazz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 6:46am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/17 "2024-11-29T06:46:37Z")
no, that is a different type of relationship; in mycorrhiza, the plants are the leading partner, in lichen, the fungi are, the relationship is deeper and the mechanisms of connection is not the same. ---
**Author:** ![ljazz](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/ljazz/32/22872_2.png) [@ljazz](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/ljazz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 6:54am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/18 "2024-11-29T06:54:54Z")
a bit more to #2: Most species of plants can survive without mycorrhizae. In some, this is noticeable, they grow mcuh better with them as without, but most plants are self sufficient (hence why we are able to grow many of the plants in gardens, far away from their habitats and fungal parters). For most species of plants, this relatioship is facultative. But there are groups of fungi, like most Glomeromycetes, which are the only ones that enter the most common form of MR, that are almost all dependent on plants., although plenty of other groups of MR fungi are facultative. It is just less efficient to do things by yourself, if fungi are better at that. ---
**Author:** ![edith1111](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/edith1111/32/36875_2.png) [@edith1111](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/edith1111)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 6:08pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/19 "2024-11-29T18:08:41Z")
Okay, I was wondering about house plants and assumed they were like brassicas and didn’t need fungi, but this makes sense. (Side question: how about air plants?) I’ve also been thinking about @jhbratton 's comment about invertebrates not thriving on host plants that grow without access to their fungal partners. It’s interesting that the plant can thrive, but that the nutrient deficiency would be significant to the invertebrates that depend on it. ---
**Author:** ![edith1111](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/edith1111/32/36875_2.png) [@edith1111](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/edith1111)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 6:15pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720/20 "2024-11-29T18:15:52Z")
How does all of this come into play with invasive plants? Are they species that don’t require fungal partners or are they extremely broad in the number of fungal species they can partner with? [Next page](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/a-few-qs-on-mycorrhizal-relationships/58720.md?page=2)