Any Gardeners or seed savers here?

[mikeschinlaub]

Because it’s incredibly short sighted. It’s solving one problem by creating another. If you only plant natives, you can create the food supply for wildlife like you want, without the risk of creating a bigger environmental problem.

Yes, the climate is changing, so a bigger gene pool for natives gives them the best chance for survival. However, trying to create hybrids will only introduce unlnown and uncontrollable variables.

From what I’ve read, White Mulberry eas introduced to try to create a domestic silk industry, and it was thought at the time that they couldn’t reproduce in our environment. Now look at the mess that has caused.

[professor_porcupine]

@song_dog

There’s a certain contingent of hippy do-gooders in Seattle, in particular, who like to guerilla-spread nonnative vegetables and trees in the hopes of providing greater food security to others.

Those seem like my kind of people , I’d really appreciate finding wild fennel while foraging, same with Red Amaranth.
Wait you say wild carrots you don’t mean Queen Anne’s Lace & actually domestic carrots gone wild?

@upupa-epops

creating ecosystems that have one or two sources of food prioritized for humans

1 or 2 sources of food? That’s too little, I love diveristy! I want like 100s of different species for food, so much so that the animals can’t eat all the abundance!
I also want to courage as much opossums as possible because *Any animal that eats ticks" is a friend of mine. I will gladly make sure there’s enough food for them too!

@upupa-epops

I understand at this stage this is mostly theory though, hard to predict what actually happens when you breed plants.

That’s what makes it fun & exciting, hybrids continue the evolution in real time!
Diversity for the win!

@mikeschinlaub

If you only plant natives, you can create the food supply for wildlife like you want, without the risk of creating a bigger environmental problem.

Well it depends on which “natives” exactly, not all “Natives” are beneficial to the ecosystem as it’s constantly changing. Sometimes “Natives” can behave like “Invasives” if the Balance is trown off. I think the key thing here is Balance.

@mikeschinlaub

Yes, the climate is changing, so a bigger gene pool for natives gives them the best chance for survival. However, trying to create hybrids will only introduce unlnown and uncontrollable variables.

Very true, I don’t know all the variables & there will be many things that aren’t taken into account. but that’s what makes diversity so much fun! Seeing all the fun surprises.
I’ve seen many examples of bad genetics pushing a species towards extinction.

1. Eastern Hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) : It’s attacked by Hemlock woolly adelgid. I know Tsuga chinensis has evolved with Wooly Adelgid thus has the genes to survive it. Hybridizing these 2 species & then letting the survivors make seeds ensures that Tsuga will be alive for the future generations. + side benefit if introducing new flavors for tea.

2. American Chestnut (Castanea dentata) : gets destroyed by Fungal issues of which is didn’t evolve for (We also cut down many trees so maybe there was a resistant tree). Regardless different Castanea spp. who have resistance can solve this issue, just cross them with C. dentata & save seeds from survivors.

Many more species need more diversification. Other wise it’s a never ending expensive battle with Herbicides, Pesticides, ect.
What are the unknown consequences of these herbicides? idk but it ain’t good. + I don’t want to poison myself with eating a wild edible that was sprayed because it was “Invasive”.

@mikeschinlaub

Now look at the mess that has caused.

Delicious mess . Mulberries are among my favorite Wild Berries period! I’m am so blessed they gone “Invasive” in my area & with so much diversity too!
I find white, purple, blacks & hybrids between them all, many of them taste like literal Candy too!
Occasionally I also shake Trees so the geese come running, it’s so fun to see them eating mulberries while I also join in the fun!

However I never found a Red Mulberry (Morus rubra) which supposedly has the better tasting greens compared to Morus alba.

[mikeschinlaub]

@professor_porcupine

However I never found a Red Mulberry

I thought I had a brief conversation here about that, but couldn’t find it. From what I remember, the natives have had their habitat severely reduced (as usual), and are pretty hard to find. White prefers open sunny areas, so they will readily spread in the average open lawn, while Red prefers shady areas. So native Reds have a hard time spreading, and have hybridized with Whites, so it’s incredibly hard to find a true Red Mulberry.

Hybridization sounds good in theory, but unless you are an actual scientist that can study the genetic outcome and environmental impact, hybrids should be considered more like spreading invasives rather than adapting natives.

I think you have good intentions, but please listen to what everyone is saying here. Be responsible with pursuing your goals.

[professor_porcupine]

@mikeschinlaub

and have hybridized with Whites, so it’s incredibly hard to find a true Red Mulberry.

I wonder where I can find those hybrids? I also wonder if the leaves taste good too?

@mikeschinlaub

unless you are an actual scientist that can study the genetic outcome and environmental impact,

I don’t know if I am at this point, I do a lot of researching everyday. I’d love to collaborate with scientists, any of them use these forums by any chance?

@mikeschinlaub

I think you have good intentions, but please listen to what everyone is saying here. Be responsible with pursuing your goals.

I think that’s fair. That’s why I’m on here, to learn as much as I can! Different perspectives help me notice things I wouldn’t otherwise.

[song_dog]

@professor_porcupine

Those seem like my kind of people ,

If they are, that’s really concerning. The kind of people I’m talking about don’t follow proven agricultural practices or have regard for the environment. It’s the worst of both worlds. I say this as someone who grows crops for the food bank.

[oksanaetal]

@professor_porcupine

I want to create Food Abundance

So leave it alone. One or two invasive edibles vs. a ton of native ones? I pick #2.
There already is food abundance. Just look around.

[professor_porcupine]

@song_dog

The kind of people I’m talking about don’t follow proven agricultural practices or have regard for the environment.

hmm… the no reguard for environment concerns me.

@oksanaetal

One or two invasive edibles vs. a ton of native ones? I pick #2.
There already is food abundance. Just look around.

I love both, especially since “Invasives” don’t have to destroy edible “Natives”. They both can work together, as I’ve seen it happen many times. Wineberries, Spicebush & Autumn Olive are great examples forming a polyculture with other “Natives” & “Invasives”.

Which “Native” wild edibles do you love?

[oksanaetal]

@professor_porcupine

“Invasives” don’t have to destroy edible “Natives”

That is the point of invasives. They do!

[professor_porcupine]

@oksanaetal

That is the point of invasives. They do!

It can’t be that black & white, I know there is some in between.

[comfycademia]

i hope so !
i dan’t see a way to “feed” (i don’t grow everything we eat, but even this supplement) my family with only natives… i’m really curious if you have recommandations for zone 2 (3 if optimistic) <3

my “native” part is moslty flowers honestly :/
(i’m bad at it but i’m tying, i promise !)

[mikeschinlaub]

It absolutely is. They outcompete native plants because they don’t have natural impediments to their growth. They grow out of control, taking over the spaces that natives used to grow in. It’s not just foreign plants introduced to the U.S., it works both ways.

Hypothetical: Black Walnuts produce a chemical through the decomposition of their leaves and nuts. This chemicle prevents the growth and kills plants that aren’t adapted to it. As an example, I have a big Spirea bush that has had about half of its spread killed by Black Walnuts growing it it. Now, take that Walnut and transport it to China. I doubt there is anything there adapted to this chemical, so the Walnut could potentially spread out of control. There also wouldn’t be anything adapted to eat it, so it doesn’t even provide food to most of the native ecosystem. On top of that, the introduce trees could carry insects, fungus, and diseases that will have a similar effect. It is only detrimental to the landscape in which it was introduced.

There is however, a potential way to introduce climate resilience to your local environment. In Peter Wohlleben’s “The Secret Network of Nature”, I read about how plants can naturally migrate to other climates. It typically happens over centuries, because their dispersal mechanisms don’t extend very far. Plants have been slowly migrating North for ages, but very slowly. So you might be able to take plants native to areas within a few miles South of you and see how they take to your area. I would suggest bringing this up with an actual conservation agency though, before implementing it yourself. The Nature Conservancy has offices in every state (you’re in the U.S. if I remember correctly) and worldwide.

[mikeschinlaub]

Zone 2 of what state?

[jasonhernandez74]

Zone 2 does not exist in any US state except Alaska. It would also encompass parts of northern Canada.

[mikeschinlaub]

@comfycademia Here are some resources for you.

https://aknps.org/resources/

https://plants.alaska.gov/nativeplantindex.htm

https://www.prairienursery.com/plants-seeds/native-plants.html?distribution_range=379&filterApplied=1

Not much to choose from in Prarie Nursery.

[comfycademia]

yep in Quebec ;)

[comfycademia]

thanks !

[mikeschinlaub]

Here are some that might be better for you in Canada. Note that I didn’t thoroughly check these out.

https://floraquebeca.qc.ca/

https://networkofnature.org/where-to-buy.htm

https://solidagofarm.ca/

[professor_porcupine]

@comfycademia

i dan’t see a way to “feed” (i don’t grow everything we eat, but even this supplement) my family with only natives… i’m really curious if you have recommandations for zone 2 (3 if optimistic) <3

Yea natives only is a very weird challege. We oddly boxed in what is “Native” vs “Non-Native”. Many Species considered “Native” to North America were very likely brought over by Native Americans but oddly corn isn’t considered “Native”?

Don’t focus on having to grow everything, supplement what you eat 1 plant at a time. Even if you get to 50% what you grow/forage you eat, is still really good!

For Zones 2 & 3, not many plants can grow in such a hard zone. I recomend creating a micro-climate that push your zone up. A huge Body of Water can extend your season for sure (Same with a Sunny Rocky Wall to reflect sunlight back). Many annuals can grow in zone 2, I’m sure you can landrace Squash to fit within your short season (Especially since Squash will ripen off vine, you can harvest it green before your first frost to finish ripening at home, + Save those seeds as they will contain genetics to ripen faster). How long is your season?

Hardiness zone is only relevant to plants that have to survive your winters, It’s not applicable to Annuals because they die reguardless & don’t have to survive your winters.

I recommend checking INaturalist to see what kind of plants are growing, just highlight your region & search for all the Plant Observations. Many of those may be wild edibles.
If you have Amelanchier growing, you can graft Apples, Pears & any other Pome fruits (Maleae Tribe).
Zone 2-3 doesn’t have much growing, but at least the spruces can make nice needle tea. Also Check Spruces & Pines for collecting pollen, a very good nutritional supplement!

@comfycademia

my “native” part is moslty flowers honestly :/

Many flowers have edible uses too! But flowers are also important for pollinators & attracting beneficials! + they’re Gorgeous & a real mood booster!

@mikeschinlaub

They outcompete native plants because they don’t have natural impediments to their growth.

But don’t Native plants also out compete Invasive too? The “Native” Blackberry is very invasive & doesn’t allow many other plants to grow through it, way more aggressive than the “Invasive” Wineberry.
Blackberries (Rubus allegheniensis & Rubus pensilvanicus species complex) are very effective at keeping deer out. I made a mistake when I cleared them out as the deer ate all my squash, melons, beans, ect. But at least I was able to grow some corn. I diversified the Blackberry Monoculture with some Black Raspberry, Wineberry, Shiso, ect.

I eventually learned my mistake & understood deer are the reason we can’t have nice things grow. My ecosystem selected for Thorny Blackberry Mess for a reason, because of deer pressure. So I let the Blackberries grow but not form a Monoculture.
Plus the Wineberries & Black Raspberries taste wayyy much better & have less thorns.

@mikeschinlaub

Black Walnuts produce a chemical through the decomposition of their leaves and nuts. This chemicle prevents the growth and kills plants that aren’t adapted to it.

I’ve heard many plants don’t grow well under Walnuts, apparently Tomatoes was one of them? But I grew them under Black Walnuts somehow, idk.
It seems the Mycorrhiza in their root zone negates some of the Juglone effects?

[mikeschinlaub]

@professor_porcupine

But don’t Native plants also out compete Invasive too?

It would be great if they did, but I don’t think that’s how it usually works. That’s what makes invasive species a problem.

Another example, this time from science fiction. I think this was from Starship Troopers. There was a planet that recieved very low amounts of radiation, and consequently evolution was pretty lacking. Life there was barely competing within it’s own native web. To farm the land didn’t even require any land prep or weed control, Earth plants just outgrew everything else with no effort.

Imagine if you could plant a single row of corn without even tilling the soil and it thrived. Then, left alone, it just kept spreading and killing off all the competition. Eventually it’s just a planet of corn.

That’s how invasives work. They spread uncontrollably, kill the competition, and take over. They creat monocultures that end up damaging the environment around them.

Monocultures provide food and habitat for relatively few animals. In turn, soil nutrients aren’t replenished like they would be with a more diverse ecosystem. Eventually the invasive would use up all of the nutrients it needs, and even it dies out. Unless natural disaster does it first, like the massive Hawaiian wildfire caused in part by the monoculture of invasive grass being very vulnerable to fire.

[professor_porcupine]

@mikeschinlaub

It would be great if they did, but I don’t think that’s how it usually works. That’s what makes invasive species a problem.

I’ve seen many “Natives” Out compete “Invasives” as well, also many times where “Invasives” Never got a foot hold.
For example the Bad tasting “Native” Blackberries mostly outcompeted the “Invasive” Wineberry in 1 spot. I’m glad I stopped the “Native” Blackberry from going crazy either wise the “Invasive” Wineberry wouldn’t have survived there.

In this situation, my Local “Native” Blackberry was Invasive to the “Invasive” Wineberry.
It was certainly not acting like a well behaved “Native”.

@mikeschinlaub

Imagine if you could plant a single row of corn without even tilling the soil and it thrived. Then, left alone, it just kept spreading and killing off all the competition. Eventually it’s just a planet of corn.

That would be crazy! Corn is too useful even if it grew that way .
Plus if it grew that well & was therefore accessible that easily, there would certainly be less herbicide spraying. That kind of invasive could end world hunger .

@mikeschinlaub

That’s how invasives work. They spread uncontrollably, kill the competition, and take over. They creat monocultures that end up damaging the environment around them.

hmm… spread uncontrollably? Is this because the current ecosystem hasn’t found a species to balance it out yet? Does this means “Invasive” species failed to naturalize properly? I don’t like Monocultures & most times they fall apart eventually.

I just see so many species labeled as “Invasive” when they don’t form monocultures in my ecosystem. Wineberries, Garlic Mustard, White Mulberry, Perilla, Ground Ivy, Autumn Olive, Norway Maple and many more fail to form a big monoculture in my ecosystem.
Garlic mustard does form a short-lived monoculture & eventually becomes less & less every year. I find Garlic Mustard but it’s no where near as abundant as it was 5 years ago. I’d say it has naturalized, at least in my local forrest it’s not “Invasive” (It used to be tho, forming huge Monocultures but not anymore).
I’m not sure if you’ve seen the same thing happen with your local Garlic Mustard Populations, so maybe they’re invasive in your area.

I also haven’t found any Kudzu, Akebia, Hardy Kiwi, Dame’s Rocket, Japanese Knotweed, Paper Mulberry, Daylily in my local ecosystem. I wish I could forage these “Invasive” species, cuz they just don’t show up. I would love to get Dame’s Rocket growing, especially if it taste great & deer don’t eat it. A monoculture of it would be wayyy to easy to manage cuz it’s delicious!

@mikeschinlaub

Monocultures provide food and habitat for relatively few animals. In turn, soil nutrients aren’t replenished like they would be with a more diverse ecosystem.

I agree! Altho all the Invasives can be choped down as mulch &/or composted. Young Invasive Trees are the easiest for this, Japanese stilgrass is Such an easy weed to pull & create abundant Mulch. I was able to mulch my Squash & Melon seedlings with it & they grew well (Until deer showed up ).