# Bones from a living animal? **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [October 15, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197 "2021-10-15T15:02:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astra\_the\_dragon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/astra_the_dragon/32/37251_2.png) [@astra\_the\_dragon](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/astra_the_dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/1 "2021-10-15T15:02:07Z")
What annotations would you add to an observation of a bone from an animal which may still be alive? When it’s more ambiguous, I mean – like finding the foot-bones of a cat, which can survive without a foot (unlikely as it is in the wild). If you found ribs, the cat is certainly dead. But a foot? part of a tail? Do I mark it as dead, or cannot be determined? ---
**Author:** ![fluffyinca](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/fluffyinca/32/10786_2.png) [@fluffyinca](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/fluffyinca)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/2 "2021-10-15T15:08:52Z")
Cannot be determined, I guess, although it does seem unlikely that it would still be alive. Unless it’s something where it could survive for a little while, but not long, in which case I would just assume it’s dead somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![marina\_gorbunova](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/marina_gorbunova/32/31454_2.png) [@marina\_gorbunova](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/marina_gorbunova)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/3 "2021-10-15T15:13:48Z")
I wouldn’t care about those very rare cases, it’s 99.9% from a dead animal, and what you meet is a dead animal part, as cats can’t shed their limbs as lizards, you can safely assume cat is gone. I saw tons of dead cats and especially in open space they’re pretty fast separated, so you can find a separate limb, and if someone ate them, this too. ---
**Author:** ![DianaStuder](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/dianastuder/32/43358_2.png) [@DianaStuder](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/DianaStuder)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/4 "2021-10-15T15:37:25Z")
The obs is for the bit you found. Which is. Very dead. We cannot know if the invisible rest of the animal is walking wounded or also dead. ---
**Author:** ![astra\_the\_dragon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/astra_the_dragon/32/37251_2.png) [@astra\_the\_dragon](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/astra_the_dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/5 "2021-10-15T15:53:05Z")
yes, I forgot to add that in the start – **if** the observation is for the part which I found, then the status of the rest of the animal is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![DianaStuder](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/dianastuder/32/43358_2.png) [@DianaStuder](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/DianaStuder)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/6 "2021-10-15T17:55:25Z")
Your initial question makes me think of vivisection or torture. Extracting a ‘bone from a living animal’ ---
**Author:** ![astra\_the\_dragon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/astra_the_dragon/32/37251_2.png) [@astra\_the\_dragon](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/astra_the_dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/7 "2021-10-15T18:05:04Z")
Ouch. I wouldn’t, but I don’t think a carnivorous predator has such qualms. ---
**Author:** ![DianaStuder](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/dianastuder/32/43358_2.png) [@DianaStuder](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/DianaStuder)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/8 "2021-10-15T18:10:30Z")
A found bone is ‘evidence of presence’. In the same way I cannot know if the creature that left tracks or scat, is living as I put that obs on iNat. It WAS living when the evidence was made, but now? If a carnivorous predator only managed to catch a foot, then a scavenger has claimed the walking wounded later. ---
**Author:** ![charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@charlie](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/charlie)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/9 "2021-10-15T18:22:39Z")
I mean, the bone is part of an animal that is dead, perhaps the other part of the animal is alive somewhere, but barring super gruesome scenarios, if you find a cat foot bone, that part of the cat is dead. I say just mark it dead. If you see a three legged cat running around that would be marked as alive. ---
**Author:** ![jnstuart](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/jnstuart/32/1623_2.png) [@jnstuart](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/jnstuart)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/10 "2021-10-15T18:31:19Z")
I consulted my three-legged dog and she said that seemed like a reasonable interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@charlie](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/charlie)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/11 "2021-10-15T18:57:39Z")
if a coyote bites off a pet’s leg and spits it out, does the leg become wild even though the rest of the pet is not, because a human did not put it there? ---
**Author:** ![jnstuart](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/jnstuart/32/1623_2.png) [@jnstuart](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/jnstuart)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/12 "2021-10-15T19:00:05Z")
I majored in biology, not philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![marina\_gorbunova](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/marina_gorbunova/32/31454_2.png) [@marina\_gorbunova](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/marina_gorbunova)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/13 "2021-10-15T20:38:28Z")
I’d say it’s reasonable for cats, but not always, you find a lizard tail and can’t really say (if it’s damaged) if lizard is dead, because most likely it’s alive. ---
**Author:** ![charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@charlie](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/charlie)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/14 "2021-10-15T20:39:58Z")
no but my point is what you are observing is dead. If you observe a wiggling lizard tail only, mark it as alive. Any other remnants of lizard tail, mark as dead, because the tail is dead. You aren’t observing the rest of the lizard. ---
**Author:** ![sedgequeen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/sedgequeen/32/1928_2.png) [@sedgequeen](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/sedgequeen)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/15 "2021-10-15T20:40:20Z")
I think that if any bones are found for a vertebrate animals (except maybe tail bones of lizards), that vertebrate should be assumed to be dead unless proven otherwise. Dead should be the default. ---
**Author:** ![marina\_gorbunova](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/marina_gorbunova/32/31454_2.png) [@marina\_gorbunova](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/marina_gorbunova)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/16 "2021-10-15T20:41:58Z")
But tail is not a separate animal, so it should be marked as cannot be determined when there’re big chances of both scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![astra\_the\_dragon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/astra_the_dragon/32/37251_2.png) [@astra\_the\_dragon](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/astra_the_dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/17 "2021-10-15T21:13:40Z")
Neither are feathers, but we still count a feather as evidence of an animal. Even if there is also a bird nearby. Bones aren’t animals per se, although it’s more of a grey area the more of the skeleton you find together. ---
**Author:** ![astra\_the\_dragon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/astra_the_dragon/32/37251_2.png) [@astra\_the\_dragon](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/astra_the_dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/18 "2021-10-15T21:15:13Z")
Oh and it should go without saying that bone-like structures such as shed antlers, and bones that are meant to separate such as sharks’ teeth, are certainly “cannot be determined”. ---
**Author:** ![marina\_gorbunova](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/marina_gorbunova/32/31454_2.png) [@marina\_gorbunova](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/marina_gorbunova)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/19 "2021-10-15T21:24:15Z")
We mark feathers an tracks (not from obvious kills) as “cannot be determibed”, so yeah, it’s kinda the same. ---
**Author:** ![mamestraconfigurata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/mamestraconfigurata/32/10149_2.png) [@mamestraconfigurata](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/mamestraconfigurata)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 4:23pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197/20 "2021-10-16T16:23:59Z")
True. But birds are known to lose feathers, where Mammals are not known to drop legs, etc. Ultimately, I think marking it dead or unknown makes a great deal of difference in the long run. I suspect marking the observation as dead, or unknown will not have any effect on the observation! Now, if was an insect leg, that’s a whole different ballgame… [Next page](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/bones-from-a-living-animal/27197.md?page=2)