Subspecies: Views are changing, what about you?

I’ve spent the last couple days reading the forum topics on subspecies with hopes of being able To actually elaborate on the opinions of users regarding subtaxon, particularly field-identifiable subspecific forms. Of course, scientists across different taxa have different views; herpetologists, botanists, and lepidopterists will all have separate opinions based on where they dedicate their expertise. So before a can of worms is opened that makes the discussion unintelligible, I want to make it clear this view is from the perspective of an ornithologist, birder, etc. while attempting to be as inclusive as possible to the others. So, if one section doesn’t really apply to your form of work, which I acknowledge could happen, let me know what you do, do. I’ll try and compile it together so we can have a broader knowledge acceptance.

I’m working on creating a comprehensive resource for identifying field-identifiable bird subspecies. I aim to make it user-friendly and inclusive in its descriptions, photos, and range data. This has never been done before, so I’m seeking opinions here to help me tread these controversial waters carefully. Once finished, I’ll likely adapt the premise grasped from this post into an author’s note for the guide. My approach is to present various questions and answer them with my opinions, hoping that other users can contribute additional insights or point out any mistakes.

(1) What is a subspecies? (for the purposes of a user-friendly guide)

Under early classification systems like Linnaean taxonomy, any bird that looked slightly different was classified as a “variety” or “form”. This description process was vague at best. By the late 1800s, ornithologists and zoologists realized these weren’t random variations; they were generally predictable, distinct populations with specific geographic regions. Finally in the late 19th century Taxonomists have further divided species into subspecies (ssp.). Each ssp. bears a third scientific name, or trinomial. A subspecies is a distinct population within a single species that lives in a specific geographical region. When they show the prerequisite recognizable differences, the species is considered to be polytypic. Its members look or act a bit different from other groups of the same species, but they can still mate and reproduce well. To be clear, subspecies are separated from species because it is known that they can successfully interbreed. Therefore, it is assumed they could and likely would interbreed if given the chance, so the focus is more on physical variations.

(2) Why should I care about identifying to subspecies?

First of all, in the case of a species split, the observations being identified to subspecies will make the transition way smoother. As an example, for birds eBird will automatically update your lists for you.

“Not only can this information be helpful to researchers and conservationists, but if the group is later split, eBird will automatically update your lists for you. If you live in Texas, where Yellow-rumped Warblers could be either the Myrtle or Audubon’s subspecies, what will happen when they are split? Any sightings you enter as “Yellow-rumped Warbler (Myrtle)” will be moved to the new species “Myrtle Warbler” and likewise for Audubon’s, but any sightings you entered as just “Yellow-rumped Warbler” would become a slash: Myrtle/Audubon’s Warbler.”

By learning more about differences, we also help collect data that may enhance bird conservation which brings us into the second point.

For legal protection and funding. Under the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA), subspecies can be listed as threatened or endangered independently of the main species. If a distinct subspecies disappears, a unique genetic lineage is lost forever, even if the broader species is thriving elsewhere. For example, the Preble’s meadow jumping mouse receives federal protection because it is a distinct, localized subspecies. Wouldn’t you say that is worth saving?

Lastly, on a less ecological note subspecies allow for a area of interest in users who missed the gold-rush of species discovery last century. Science is always developing and the goal is always to be learning more, one can never know everything. Way back when, subspecies were thought to be left for in-hand review, and before that species were even considered nearly impossible for field ID - like everything, to an extent stuff develops as the people who are involved build on it and so develop. So much is unknown about subspecies of familiar birds, you really could have an important impact if you work to gather your own data on them. We have much to learn about the geographic distributions, migration patterns, and identification marks of many subspecies.

(3) Should the CV at least include the easily differentiated subspecies? If so, how?

I would appreciate improving support for subspecies within the CV. The Suggestions tab will currently only provide photos and distribution maps for species observed within a particular country/state/province/county and it would be great to be able to see these at a subspecies level. Some birds are clearly different, but have almost no observations at the subtaxon level, people can’t identify them and help with research if they don’t know they exist.

I’m sure this point is going to be the base of most traction on the post because any implementation might be difficult. I’m not saying it should be done because I want it, rather it is a point to consider because it would be helpful in the gaining on knowledge in relation to subtaxon.

The unfortunate view of many users is discouraging subspecies identifications in general on iNaturalist, so the CV doesn’t support them (*Not the only reason, I’m just saying…). This upsets me because it is suppressing a really important drive for information which is often missing in many subspecies such as subspecies ranges, morphology, and the topic of a potential split in the future, etc as mentioned above.

(4) Should you identify subspecies based on range only?

In line with the ABA and other ornithologists I’ve talked to, I’ve come to the position that subspecies should not be identified based on range. Automatically assuming the most likely form can dilute our perception of how prevalent that form is. That is, if we report all birds as the local form by default, we “prove” our idea that they are all the local form, regardless of whether we actually have evidence. If you can see the diagnostic feature, from my point of view there is little reason not to. But then what is the value in guessing subspecies if you can’t tell? For iNaturalist, it creates pointless, circular data and at worst it creates wrong data. If you identify an organism as Subspecies A simply because the map says Subspecies A lives there, and then your data point is used to update the map, you create a self-fulfilling/conflicting loop. (Note: I cannot confidently say this is the case for certain Lepidoptera subspecies as I know some well-versed users frequently identify based on range, but from my outside point of view it seems like they may be doing irrational work. I would love to here what they have to see though)

This is really worth its own topic and I could get into it way more, but I’ll leave it at one more point. The safest approach is always to identify only to the species level unless you can personally observe and confirm the diagnostic physical or behavioral traits. However, I cannot begrudge certain cases where users do identify based on range. This is primarily for island subspecies that do not have an ending gradient where intergrades abound, and expecting the unexpected is the only way to be precise. What I mean is, if a subspecies is completely isolated on a remote island or some distinct mountain range where no other subspecies exist, the location alone can provide reliable identification because, despite thousands of organisms researched, there has never been another subspecies in the isolated area and there is no reason to expect it is there. Still, I would only ever feel comfortable doing this if the given subspecies is field identifiable, but the photos are obscure (or it is a sound recording) and the range helps check the final box for ID. Because honestly, why would you be identifying subspecies on iNat and the related sites. Any scientists who would want to gather info on genetically different range seperated subspecies would do so by simply making a boundary and recording the species records within it for the area. Not by a fraction of incomplete work on iNat. Said work done online from a user behind a screen can only be sketchy work.

What do you think?

I’m not a big fan of subspecies but recognize that in some cases they are morphologically distinct forms that can be readily IDed from a photo. However, at least among mammals, there are many recognized subspecies that are not particualrly distinct (e.g, minor differences in pelage coloration) and probably should not be recognized. Can’t say for birds, although some of them might be similarly subtle. I certanly agree that, in most cases, we should not use published range information as the sole criterion for assigning any specimen or photo to a subspecies. That ends up being a circular affirmation of where the subspecies occurs. Lastly, there is the matter of intergrade zones where two subspecies meet and examples from those areas cannot be reliably assigned to either. In such cases, no subspecies should be assigned.

Yeah, I can definitely see your point of view, they can seem more confusing then good in some cases, which is some cases is very true :upside_down_face:

That is why I for us mere mortals I resort to sticking to the morphologically distinct forms, where so many factors need more research help. Including conservation, etc.

What hasn’t been done before? There is a vast published literature on the subspecies of birds in North America, if that is your focal area. Up through the 5th edition (1957), the A.O.U. Check-List of North American Birds explicitly included the ranges of subspecies of all North American birds and many/most field guides then and now still discuss identification of subspecies or subspecies groups.

There will always be a niche for newly formatted guides to these regional populations of birds, especially in the modern electronic publishing world, but IMO it is a bit of an overstatement to suggest “this has never been done before”.

I was pretty clear about what I meant; perhaps I should have switched range data to standard field guide range

I aim to make it user-friendly and inclusive in its descriptions, photos, and range data.

Such a guide with photos, complete descriptions, and ranges has never been done and they certainly haven’t been done in the format of a field easily accessible guide. All the up-to-date knowledge is often hidden in other publications that haven’t been updated to the overarching sources, and I have to go on side excursions to contact researchers who focus on those populations. If you have other information please let me know the closest I’ve found is the sibley draft which is far from clear doesn’t have photos and simply leaves out details in many cases. It however, is still a good resource compared to what else is available for ease of use.

When you mention bird ranges are you talking about breeding ranges? Migratory and wintering ranges can be complicated when it comes to bird subspecies. We probably have up to a half-dozen subspecies (or at least recognizable forms) of Dark-eyed Junco in my area during winter.

@cs16-levi Levi, I’d like to hear more from you about the realm of species which might be suitable for your efforts. I’m not against the concept of adding subspecies (or ssp. groups) to iNat but I don’t have confidence that it would lead to better science (e.g. identifications and distributions) from iNat uploads. I’m a biogeographer and a lifelong birder. In my experience, in the vast majority of cases, bird subspecies in North America are defined by small, subtle, and often overlapping/gradational differences in size and plumage coloration along with geography. I have low confidence that such subtleties can be confidently recognized in the digital uploads we typically see for the vast majority of North American birds. Certainly not in their migratory and winter ranges.

So my question to you is: Could you provide a handful of examples where you think the subspecies discrimination of digital images will make a fruitful contribution to our knowledge base (i.e. without the community getting into unwinnable arguments based age/sex/plumage differences)? I expect a list of straightforward examples might be short.

Question one:

I’m currently discussing this with other researchers; odd populations like the Gray-Bellied Brant make this very difficult.

Note, I still intend to have a field resource. This means I have to pick a careful balance of avoiding an unreadable and inaccurate mess and a map of only specialized ranges discouraging birders trying to identify winter visitors. To make matters worse, taxonomically, a subspecies is defined by where it breeds. So I’ll be accompanying the maps with plenty of text.

The National Geographic Field Guide does set a pretty good standard for the ranges of the subspecies they cover, but I plan to develop from that a little more. My project is a dedicated subspecies guide, rather than having to include all the species as well. That means I have the space and time to add cartography to each individual form, giving readers more clarity.

For the Dark-eyed Junco I’ve typed up a basic draft to give you an idea of how it might work.

Subspecies Group Breeding Range (Solid Color choice) Winter and or Migratory Range (Dashed + something to distinguish for migratory)
Slate-colored (hyemalis/carolinensis) Boreal forests of Alaska/Canada; Appalachian Mtns. Spreads heavily across the entire Eastern & Central US.
Oregon (oreganus group) Coastal & mountain forests of the Pacific Northwest. Short-distance migrant down the West Coast, but regularly irrupts eastward into the Midwest.
Pink-sided (mearnsi) Northern Rocky Mountains (Montana, Wyoming). Moves south into the Southwest US and southern Great Plains.
Gray-headed (caniceps) Southern Rocky Mountains (Colorado, Utah, Nevada). Moves to lower elevations and south into Mexico/Texas.
White-winged (aikeni) endemic to the Black Hills region (SD/WY). Very short migrant, moving just south into Colorado/Kansas.

Question two:

So my question to you is: Could you provide a handful of examples where you think the subspecies discrimination of digital images will make a fruitful contribution to our knowledge base (i.e. without the community getting into unwinnable arguments based age/sex/plumage differences)? I expect a list of straightforward examples might be short.

First, I totally agree that trying to get users to identify subtle subspecies (Song Sparrows or Empidonax flycatchers for example) from average uploads would result in bad data and unwinnable arguments. I don’t support that; in fact, that is the opposite of what I want. That is actually exactly why I wanted to map this out. Understand I do not want to force the finer points of unidentifiable groups onto iNaturalist, but rather to provide a field tool that compiles the visually diagnosable forms where photos properly recorded can reliably contribute to our knowledge.

To answer your question, here is a short list of straightforward examples where field marks allow digital uploads to fruitfully map migratory/winter distributions and vagrancy.

Fox Sparrows (Passerella iliaca groups): The morphological gaps between the Red, Sooty, Slate-colored, and Thick-billed groups are distinct enough that digital uploads can reliably map their winter

White-crowned Sparrows (Zonotrichia leucophrys): The lore color difference between the leucophrys (black lores) and gambelii (pale lores) groups is a binary field mark easily captured in digital photos, allowing us to map the precise eastern limits of gambelii migration.

Dark-eyed Juncos (Junco hyemalis): While intermediate forms are tough and usually should be left at species level, examples of mearnsi (Pink-sided), caniceps (Gray-headed), and oreganus (Oregon) are distinct. Digital data is already proving incredibly useful for tracking the winter vagrancy of western forms into the East.

Yellow-rumped Warblers (Setophaga coronata): The throat coloration and facial patterns separating winter coronata (Myrtle) and auduboni (Audubon’s) are identifiable in photos, helping to track the true extent of their wintering ranges, not to mention the split discussion.

Merlins (Falco columbarius): Color differences between columbarius (Boreal), richardsonii (Prairie), and suckleyi (Black) make them great candidates for photographic mapping of winter movements.

These are just a few examples! If you’d like to see the guide I wouldn’t mind providing the draft via DM, but it isn’t ready for public view, though I plan to make it publicly viewable before I complete it so others can use what I have provided. I prefer to work a lot on each individual subspecies and group before moving on, check all sources for overlooked field marks, etc., before moving on to adding the next subspecies so I have a lot of work in progress stuff.

Does that make sense? Thanks for the comments, it helps me work on the details in making the guide.

(1) What is a subspecies? (for the purposes of a user-friendly guide)

If we are talking about birds: A population that is isolated by distance or feeding habits will diverge into a separate species. Halfway along the way these are just called subspecies.

Grasses and mosses rarely have subspecies.
The most prominent exception is Hypnum cupressiforme which has 8 to 10 forms, organised into subspecies.

(2) Why should I care about identifying to subspecies?

Some taxa cannot be identified to species unless you can identify them to subspecies (whether the ssp is recorded or not)

(3) Should the CV at least include the easily differentiated subspecies? If so, how?

No way!
The suggestion logic progressed from suggesting the correct genus to suggesting the top taxa, often incorrectly.
Checking and pushing back on incorrect subspecies would not be fun at all.
Let subspecies identification remain in the domain of the keen and informed.

(4) Should you identify subspecies based on range only?

I wouldn’t, but it deserves a consideration.

If two bird subspecies look the same, they must have differing feeding habits.
Worth documenting.
I have example from Australia, the Crimson Rosella.

I think: we shouldn’t. If we want to learn something about range, we destroy the data if we use range as the criterion to identify a specific specimen. The same applies to habitat.

My perspective on bird subspecies is shaped by this understanding that they need some revision:

For example my understanding is that Cassiar Junco results from intergrades of Oregon and Slate-coloured Juncos, but then why is Cassiar a whole subspecies on its own? Theoretically there could be a stable population of intergrade descendants, but in practice I’m guessing what we call Cassiar when we see them out of range are more likely direct intergrades?

The above then creates general skepticism of subspecies, which increases reluctance to ID them.

I think iNaturalist would be greatly benefitted by adding subspecies groups like eBird has. For example Slate-coloured and Oregon Juncos are both recognizable phenotypes, but both are composed of multiple subspecies that generally aren’t recognizable. Unless someone goes and synonymizes them, the best we could do is use observation fields to categorize them. And I don’t have much hope for subspecies groups being added given the demand for species groups that hasn’t gone anywhere so far.

Some comments from staff on the subject of hybrids, which I think would have a lot of functional overlap with subspecies with respect to CV capabilities:

The developers are working on improving these issues, which would also help it be functional for subspecies. However it does tend to seem like iNat’s official priorities are more towards giving simple species names to laypeople rather than getting into the intricacies of subspecies and species complexes.

Basically conceptually meaningless for arthropods other than some butterflies. A very significant exception is the distinction between human head and body lice, which are both subspecies of the human louse.

I think that the definition here for subspecies applies well for birds. However, it does not work for many other taxa.

Part of a conversation with another person and here I noted that the line is drawn by people, not by reality.

Here is the thing:

I think that a subspecies is suitable for taxa like Amphibians, Reptiles including birds and Mammals.

But a subspecies is so arbitrary.

Following your definition -

Humans across the world from different cultures can have different characteristics, skin tone, build, accent and so on but they are no subspecies. Think about it.

Subspecies are arbitrary. They are what people draw a line on.

I generally, if I had a choice, would define subspecies based on minor morphological differences and varieties based on colour only but nowadays vars are out of use.

Insects are another thing. Variation in insects is something well known even if the genitalia of populations is consistent, the colours can vary. Many such species are known.

There is one species that I forgot the name of, which at one point were two separate species, different taxa, based on several differences but dissection proved them to be the same.

This also brings a question. Just because two species have similar genitalia, can we state that they are the same?

In theory, evolution had a nearly infinite amount of time to make as many mutations as possible. As per the infinite monkey paradox, the monkeys will write any possible sting of letters or book in an infinite amount of time. It is easier for two less related species to have the same genitalia when they are related to say tribe. At one point of time there must have been two externally and unrelated, different species with the same genitalia.

Lastly, I would want you to understand what subspecies actually are.

Say I have one species which is yellow and then I find another species which is green. They are no intermediates and yet a majority of species features they are the same. They are subspecies.

Where do we define new genera, it is a choice too.

Till now all species in a genus A had a black spot on the scutellum. Now if I want I could add anther species with pale scutellum to it and just redefine the genus, or decide it is different.

Time is a dimension, and a perfect classification may survive it, if the world believed it is right.

There was a genus named in 1832 and another genus was described in 1924 with its type species being a synonym of another species described in the first one. Both species were synonymized with one and the genera were synonymized.

A thesis from 2012 shows it is a species complex of relate species. The abstracts were published in proceedings later on but the actual work never came out till now, 14 years later.

Recently I looked dup the genus, got the paper with some help and the two species described in the paper were distinct, one of them was synonymous while the other should be valid, corresponding to sp. 9 in that thesis, and the genus is valid, the species they had been synonymized with and atleast 17 more species wold have to either be shifted to the reinstated genus or be synonyized with one of the species being shifted. Some of those synonyms were valid for almost 200 years. But even that much survival does not forgive. A phylogeny sent by a friend, the one in the thesis and other papers too confirm its monophyly.

Both clades can be one genus, each genus has further clades too. But it is arbitrary, it is a choice.

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Conclusion: Which definition has survived it current but need not be correct. The authors draw the line, not a definition, and since clades appear at every level, we can go higher until we define all lifer under one genus, or all species under their own. Where we draw the line, it is a choice. Correct definitions are there to work with and edit, but not to be standardised, whether in the way of making them permanent or redefined as per standards.

in the end, it is dynamic, and infinitely deep. A good example of the sorites paradox. Where to draw the line, between red and orange, not old and old, fast and slow, when removing .1 m/s doesn’t make a difference at a time. Where to draw the line. How much difference makes it a species, a subspecies or variation in the same species.

I identify butterflies for Ontario, Canada. Here, most of our species only have a single subspecies (there may be some obscure and not-widely-accepted subspecies defined - it’s hard to keep track of all the subspecies that are proposed by various so-called experts). Even where multiple subspecies are theoretically present, the differences are usually so subtle that they wouldn’t be distinguishable in most of the photos that get submitted to iNat. With a single exception, I haven’t been identifying observations to subspecies. Some other identifiers have insisted on identifying some subspecies based purely on geography. To my mind, this is circular and therefore pointless (in one case, there is only a single subspecies in the entire western hemisphere, yet the non-local identifiers in question go out of their way to identify EVERY observation to that subspecies ). Though some might argue that this is benign, it does lead naive observers to revise their perfectly correct IDs to coincide with these needlessly precise subspecies IDs. Because of the quirks of the voting system, it may lead to some observations being stuck in the NID state, even though multiple users agree on the species level ID (I’m not sure about this. I no longer pay any attention to whether or not observations are RG, and I’ve lost track of all the ways in which the voting system fails).

I made that one exception to my rule for a species where there are 2 very distinct subspecies in our area. Once upon a time, they were thought to be separate species, and have unique common names. They were lumped long ago, but everyone persists in treating them as if they are separate entities (in field guides, Atlases, etc.). Because of this history, and the apparent ease with which the 2 subspecies can be distinguished, I went along with this. What could possibly go wrong?
There is a huge region of overlap between these 2 subspecies, and intergrades are quite common. There is an intergrade taxon defined in iNat, and folks have been using it. iNaturally, disagreements arose over precisely what constitutes a valid intergrade. Once you start looking carefully at members of this species, you notice a great deal of subtle variation, and no two people seem to agree on what constitutes a “pure” example of either subspecies. Everyone seemed to have different, and often conflicting ideas about which subtle differences indicated that one was dealing with an intergrade. Taken all together, these various criteria would suggest that most individuals in Ontario (which is much larger than many countries) could be interpreted as an intergrade. This may actually be reflection of biological reality, but once you go down that road, the subpecies taxonomy becomes largely pointless.
Eventually, I drew an arbitrary line and said that for the sake of consistency (and to allow us to get one with things), an individual had to have a certain feature to be considered an intergrade. I made no bones about the fact that though this criterion was intuitive, it was completely arbitrary. This seemed to resolve things and we proceeded for several years without much quibbling. But a few years back, it was acknowledged that a 3rd subspecies was likely present around the NW boundary of Ontario. The difference between this subspecies and the nominate subspecies is more subtle and is (IMO) poorly defined. It isn’t quite so easy to differentiate the two in many field photos (requiring both dorsal and ventral views). This led to me having considerable misgivings over the identification scheme we were using, and I began to consider that a simpler taxonomy might better describe the observed reality. But as we were already so far steeped in blood (as the saying goes), I opted to wade on, using 3 possible subspecies (and an intergrade between the two more distinct subspecies).

This summer, an observer began to argue that many of the individuals we had been identifying as the nominate subspecies should really be identified as the NW subspecies, based on what I feel are a simplified set of identification criteria (based on something they found on BugGuide - which I don’t acknowledge as being particularly authoritative). The simplified criteria are necessary since most field photos will not include both dorsal and ventral views, which would be needed to apply the full criteria upon which the 3rd subspecies definition is founded.
At this point, I became convinced that the house of cards had acquired one too many levels, and I decided that I should have never made an exception to my rule of steering clear of susbpecies.

So now, I no longer identify butterflies to subspecies. No exceptions. Others may do so, and I won’t “disagree” with their IDs, but I refuse to play this mug’s game.

Maybe identifying to subspecies makes sense for butterflies in some (tropical?) regions, but for our region, I think they just lead to a lot of pointless quibbling. Even where it makes sense, I am skeptical about the number of observations that will feature photos that show enough detail to allow subspecies level identification criteria to be applied (many of the butterflies I identify appear as little more than blurry blobs - the photos taken with a cell phone from several meters away).

Circling back to the subject of this thread: Yes, my thinking has changed. I am now even LESS inclined to identify observations to subspecies than I was in the past.

There is also the related issue we see regularly with birds and mammals that when a genus is found to not be monophyletic, the solution is often to elevate subspecies to species, resulting in a finer and more confusing definition of “species”. Many familiar African megafauna that were one species when I was growing up are now split into multiple species, and it’s happening more with common and familiar bird species close to home as well (e.g. Herring Gull, Yellow Warbler, House Wren, Warbling Vireo).

Since Yellow-rumped Warbler and Dark-eyed Junco haven’t been split I assume there is still some level of checking to make sure the new splits don’t interbreed much, but I haven’t read much into the literature on them.

I complained to my congresswoman about taxonomic inflation but I doubt Congress will do anything.

Yeah, the pendulum has swung a little too far towards the splitters in a number of taxa, in my opinion. Some correction is likely needed in the near future.

I feel like if subspecies hadn’t been overly split in the past then people would be more likely to use them, and then there would be less appeal to splitting species because we would be more familiar with the subspecies and how to apply them.

I wonder if you could do a bit of a reframing - instead of covering subspecies as discrete, identifiable units in your book, cover them as ranges of variation within a species, the extremes of which have been named. Trying to comprehensively cover subspecies identification is a fraught task - subspecies by definition aren’t reproductively isolated (otherwise they would be species, not subspecies), so unless they are allopatric populations, they will blend where they come into contact (if they don’t, they probably either need to be elevated to species level, or have a very simple genetic basis that doesn’t warrant subspecies status, like dark vs light Snow Geese).

Many of the bird subspecies you have listed (Dark-eyed Junco, White-crowned Sparrow, Yellow-rumped Warbler) are at the extremes, where these subspecies are probably moderately far along in the speciation process, possibly with some (incomplete) level of reproductive isolation, such that it is debatable whether they should be treated as subspecies vs species. In many other groups, as I’m sure you are aware, the subspecies boundaries are not so distinct, with ranges of intermediates varying across the landscape. Often, named subspecies (based on morphology) don’t line up well with genetics - in three cases where I’ve done genetic sequencing on bird populations, genetic structure doesn’t line up with traditionally-defined subspecies. We are still at a relatively early stage of exploring genetic structure in most bird species (nevermind more obscure taxa!)

Making a guide focused on within-species variation is a cool idea, but be careful not to overemphasize them as discrete categories.