# What do we do with moth "complexes" regarding ID? **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [April 6, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887 "2019-04-06T21:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mamestraconfigurata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/mamestraconfigurata/32/10149_2.png) [@mamestraconfigurata](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/mamestraconfigurata)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/1 "2019-04-06T21:14:51Z")
In moth identification, there are a number of Genera that have 'species complexes" (i.e. [https://bugguide.net/index.php?q=search&keys=xestia+complex&search=Search](https://bugguide.net/index.php?q=search&keys=xestia+complex&search=Search)). The moths, occasionally three or four in a complex, cannot be told apart without dissection and genital comparison. Since most of our ID’s are made from photographs, what would be the best way of identifying these moths that would satisfy most experts? Should they be labelled as simply Genera with ‘as good as it gets’ label, or is there some other way of dealing with these complexes? ---
**Author:** ![zookanthos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9e5f3/32.png) [@zookanthos](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/zookanthos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/2 "2019-04-06T23:28:16Z")
This problem is common to all groups of small organisms, and the general solution is to ID to the lowest possible rank and include in your comments or in a [holding bin field](https://www.inaturalist.org/observation_fields/7890) what the possibilities that you cannot rule out are. You can also now create species complexes and use them as if they were a regular ID. ---
**Author:** ![upupa-epops](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/upupa-epops/32/1972_2.png) [@upupa-epops](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/upupa-epops)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/3 "2019-04-07T01:47:08Z")
Is there a specific taxonomic definition of “species complex” that should be used when making a new “taxon” on iNaturalist, or can it be used for any tricky species group (like a slash or sp. on eBird)? Edit: Might have been smart to look it up. Here is the help page section on it: [https://www.inaturalist.org/pages/curator+guide#complexes](https://www.inaturalist.org/pages/curator+guide#complexes) So yeah there is a pretty specific definition, which may not cover many examples of species groups that can’t be identified from photos. ---
**Author:** ![caththalictroides](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/caththalictroides/32/435_2.png) [@caththalictroides](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/caththalictroides)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/4 "2019-04-07T13:04:10Z")
Is there a way to see what species complex have been created as regular IDs? Will they pop up under the species suggestions? I just tried it for Xanthotype (2 closely related species that require dissection to ID), and the individual species (urticaria & sospeta) came up, but not the two together as a complex. Has it simply not been created yet? ---
**Author:** ![bouteloua](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/bouteloua/32/1180_2.png) [@bouteloua](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/bouteloua)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/5 "2019-04-07T13:10:06Z")
It’s a new rank on iNat, so there are only a few so far: [https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?place\_id=any&rank=complex&subview=grid&view=species](https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?place_id=any&rank=complex&subview=grid&view=species) [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/55911-Rubus-fruticosus](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/55911-Rubus-fruticosus) [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/857773-Enicospilus-americanus-complex](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/857773-Enicospilus-americanus-complex) [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/868309-Clusiodes-melanostomus](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/868309-Clusiodes-melanostomus) [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/858297-Chrysoperla-carnea-group](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/858297-Chrysoperla-carnea-group) [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/857190-Pantherophis-alleghaniensis](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/857190-Pantherophis-alleghaniensis) ---
**Author:** ![mamestraconfigurata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/mamestraconfigurata/32/10149_2.png) [@mamestraconfigurata](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/mamestraconfigurata)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/6 "2019-04-07T16:00:53Z")
Thank you all for the help. I’ll follow the suggestions. I’ve come across a number in the Noctuids, some of which are routinely caught, so I’ll probably make some new ones. ---
**Author:** ![ericwilliams](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/ericwilliams/32/48_2.png) [@ericwilliams](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/ericwilliams)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/7 "2019-04-08T01:25:33Z")
Here’s one way they were dealt with in the past: [https://www.inaturalist.org/journal/krancmm/11499-about-the-field-holding-bin-moths](https://www.inaturalist.org/journal/krancmm/11499-about-the-field-holding-bin-moths) ---
**Author:** ![mamestraconfigurata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/mamestraconfigurata/32/10149_2.png) [@mamestraconfigurata](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/mamestraconfigurata)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/8 "2019-04-09T20:26:23Z")
Could someone walk me through steps of making a complex from Xestia c-nigrum/Xestia dolosa? I’ve tried a number of times with no success. Reference is [https://bugguide.net/node/view/30522](https://bugguide.net/node/view/30522) ---
**Author:** ![jdmore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/jdmore/32/1116_2.png) [@jdmore](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/jdmore)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/9 "2019-04-10T05:39:13Z")
> [@mamestraconfigurata](#): > > Could someone walk me through steps of making a complex from Xestia c-nigrum/Xestia dolosa? My approach would be: - [https://www.inaturalist.org/pages/curator+guide#complexes](https://www.inaturalist.org/pages/curator+guide#complexes) - check the Curator Guidelines for making complexes. If this seems to meet the criteria, you will need to figure out which of the species names is the earliest published. Assuming for this example it is _Xestia dolosa_, then… - [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/new](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/new) - create and save a taxon called _Xestia dolosa_ with rank = “complex”, parent = genus _Xestia_, and source = [https://bugguide.net/node/view/30522](https://bugguide.net/node/view/30522). - [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/203342-Xestia-c-nigrum](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/203342-Xestia-c-nigrum) and [https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/143123-Xestia-dolosa](https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/143123-Xestia-dolosa) - edit each species (Curation \> Edit Taxon), and in the Parent lookup box, type in _Xestia dolosa_ (or whichever species the complex ended up being named for), hit lookup, carefully select the complex and not the species as the new parent, then Save Changes at bottom. After this, when someone wants to use the complex as an ID, they’ll need to type in the species for which it was named, and choose the complex instead of the species from the list. (Or you could create a unique “common name” for the complex for lookup purposes.) ---
**Author:** ![bouteloua](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.inaturalist.org/bouteloua/32/1180_2.png) [@bouteloua](https://forum.inaturalist.org/u/bouteloua)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/what-do-we-do-with-moth-complexes-regarding-id/1887/10 "2021-09-24T21:40:40Z")
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