Freshwater Fishes and The End of Nature

Nature Talk
21

All this discussion is well and good, but the main thing I notice so far is that nobody seems to want to address the quesion that was first asked: “Can there be hope for freshwater fishes “in nature” (however you define that)?” Of the 20 posts so far, only a few have touched on that. A couple expressed a tentative “yes”:

Although in context, even Quercitron’s tentative yes was tempered by the knowledge that it is an uphill battle. A larger number were more pessimistic, leaning toward a reluctant “no”:

This is the same idea that the man featured in the documentary was trying to express. We may consider him a poacher and a greenwasher, but he is acting under the same beliefs that the above three quotes expressed. In his mind, he sees himself as taking the only realistic action to ensure that these species continue to exist, even if only in aquaria.

Finally, one more:

I wasn’t sure how to categorize this one since it can be taken two ways. On the one hand, it could be taken as advocating for habitat restoration. On the other, it could also be taken as admitting defeat: if there will not be any place for them in nature, might as well let them go extinct.

I will add a few more thoughts of my own. Before Diane Fossey’s field work with mountain gorillas, most of what we knew about gorillas came from research on captive western lowland gorillas. Zoos promote themselves, in part, as research institutions. We can learn more about a fish that exists only in aquaria than we can about a fish that does not exist anymore anywhere.

2 Likes
22

There was nothing tentative about my answer.

Here is MOJA. and here is the Xochimilco project.

Here is SDSN, which thankfully has not categorically given up on any region; here is SDSN Americas.

Here is SDSNMexico. and here is the SDSN Xochimilco project.

Please go read the work, backed by extensive research, of the two organizations I referenced. These are two very different entities, yet both provide a very similar alternative position (i.e. restoration of habitat) to the one hour video from a snatch-n-grab fish colonist.

2 Likes
23

My point was that time, money, and energy would be better invested in preserving natural environments for species rather than keeping the species alive under permanently artificial conditions. And from my perspective nature is not nature if does not exist independently or ‘naturally’.

Also the rest of the quote

Exactly how it needs to be done is obviously a complex answer, but I don’t think preserving nature is hopeless, and I certainly think it should be the ideal. If we give up now there’s definitely no chance at preserving natural environments.

was very clear, so I’m not sure why you were confused, that’s a pretty straightforward ‘yes’ to your original question.

1 Like
24

When reading this, keep in mind that I am not against exotic animal husbandry, but I am against some practices/ keeping some species.

I volunteer at a wildlife clinic. I am mostly around the wild animals that can be returned to the wild, but the wildlife clinic is a part of a nature center where some “ambassador animals”, animals that were injured/habituated to the point that they cannot be returned to the wild and have to be cared for by professionals.

The animals that people were keeping as “pets”, including a lot of the nature center’s herps, are pretty altered behavior-wise. There’s a Western Fox Snake, for instance, who was kept illegally in captivity. None of the ambassador animals can be re-introduced back to the wild. I feel that breeding in captivity, while helpful, shouldn’t be the only solution, or the main solution.

In addition, I don’t think that the aquarium trade should have anything to do with endangered, unresearched species. These species, if kept in captivity, shouldn’t be kept by hobbyists.

I agree with Lucy:

2 Likes
25

I live on a 20 Ha property in NSW Australia with a creek. Over the last 30 years I have been trying to protect and improve the native habitat, with some sucess. I have seen many species of birds, reptiles, plants etc returning and increasing, it is possible to restore ecosystems somewhat, mainly just through not grazing and leaving it alone. I must admit that when it comes to the creek I have been less sucessful. The creek has been seriously degraded in the past and there are no native fish or shellfish. I have mostly stopped erosion but the continued overgrazing upstream means I can’t do much about water quality or increased flows due to runoff. I think this is pretty typical of a lot of areas around the world, and freshwater habitats are very difficult to restore.

4 Likes
26

I was thrown off by the cautious tone: “should be the ideal” after saying that it is complex. A lot of us recognize that what we would ideally like is unachievable.

Yes, you are right, there was nothing tentative about your answer. Although, as @agileantechinus mentioned, restoring the creek has been less successful despite restoring the surrounding land. Except for the axolotl projects, the organizations you linked did not appear to focus directly on streams; when I searched using SDSN the term “freshwater,” 18 projects returned, several of which appeared to be more focused on freshwater supply. Given the number of links, and the focus of the thread, I was hoping to see lots of river- and stream-related projects; but these are a good start, especially SDSN.

So far, Lucy has been the best at defending her position. There have been a lot of opinions about what “ought to” or “should” be done; but the same can be said about COP summits, and we know what comes of those. There has been a lot of condemnation of what someone else is doing, but except for agileantechinus, nobody has mentioned anything that they are doing instead. Lucy provided names of specific projects and groups who are actually doing work like this.

2 Likes
27

Beavers in Cornwall ?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/feb/28/ultimate-bringers-of-life-cornwall-farmer-beavers-stop-flooding

There are shallow areas lined with gravel which make perfect fish nurseries

29

While I appreciate the examples being provided I don’t think they are what @jasonhernandez74 was wanting to see examples of.
Not sure how to phrase this properly but, both of those are from developed countries that have an established environmentalist movement.
The original topic was of “poaching” fish from rivers that are little known outside of locals in countries that are “underdeveloped” where surviving is often the key priority and protecting nature is not prioritized.
I am not saying similar projects don’t exist in such places but that the examples provided are irrelevant.

1 Like
30

You are correct. And thank you for putting “poaching” in quotation marks, because I in no way implied that this man was contravening the law; I was surprised when people replying began throwing around the word “poaching.” Some of the assumptions being made here might have been libelous if names had been mentioned.

The reason I watched the documentary in the first place was because in my youth, I dreamed of being a biological explorer, finding new species in remote places. My inability to do so is one of my regrets in life. I can understand his calculus. Not saying that I would have made the same choice, but I can understand how he came by it. Given the nearly universal paradigm of “if it pays, it stays” – and I hate to burst your bubbles, but there are Indigenous people who think that way, too – I can see how he looked at his options and concluded that aquarists were the most likely source of the funding needed to do this work. Several times in the video, he said “Every minute, fish are disappearing.” He felt that he was in a race against the clock just to document their existence before they disappeared, and it seemed to him that aquarists were the only ones at all interested in the existence of those fishes. It was a pragmatic decision.

But finger wagging is so much easier.

31

Is this a joke? This has been one of the most offensive threads I can remember.

The entire pretext of this thread is that an entire region is, how was it worded?

and the “proof” and yes, that word is in quotes, offered for these broad and unkind statements is, what again?

My mind is blown that these horrific statements of yours have been basically unchecked.

To be clear: I do not need to defend my position. My position is sound and fair. This thread, however, is based on a faulty and unkind premise that presumes that due to some travels and a 60 minute vid on ouTube you somehow have a window into the minds of entire countries, entire peoples.

I hate to burst your bubble(s), but this?

is not only slightly magical thinking, it is especially problematic when people from one country come to another to impose their solutions without engaging the local population.

I have been exceedingly patient, I feel, but I note it is not my responsibility nor that of any other to defend nor educate.

If you are interested in what individual countries are or are not doing (and I note MX alone has hundreds of orgs working toward watersheds, local, estatal, and national), the onus is on you to educate yourself rather than flinging out offensive statements then chiding others for not dancing in a way that suits you.

Saludos.

7 Likes
32

I thought it was a bit weird, too. I’ve not only traveled in Latin America, I’ve lived there for decades, including five years in a pretty remote part of the Amazon. I was especially struck by the comments about barbasco fishing. The people I lived with knew and occasionally used several types of barbasco - but only very occasionally. Barbasco fishing is very labor intensive so they preferred traps, spears or hook and line. Moreover, the effects of barbasco are not nearly as horrific as was implied.

2 Likes
34

Damaged waterways is pretty well a global issue, in Illinois (where I am), our natural land tends to be rather small isolated pockets surrounded by farmland, which means we get a large amount of agricultural spillover, not to mention tons of road salt every winter in all of the waterways.

As to does the pet trade help or hinder declining species, I’d ask if the pet trade is collecting these animals for breeding purposes or selling purposes? If they are actively breeding them, then I can wrap my head around the argument of using the pet trade as a way to keep species around until the underlying problem of their habitat is fixed. But if a pet owner just wants one fish to add to his tropical tank, I don’t see how that helps.

35

I reviewed the tropical marine fish trade for the South Pacific Community’s Live Reef Fish Bulletin and believe that the situation is much worse for fresh-water than salt-water fishes. And the interconnectedness which makes many extensive salt-water ecosystems more resilient regarding biodiversity also become risks when hazards spread more easily through the connections. My Masters focused on sustainable aquaculture systems, but I feel very pessimistic about the wild-caught trade, particularly in fresh-water catchments.

4 Likes
37

Me too, those books were awesome

2 Likes
38

Lucy, I am sorry if I have expressed myself boorishly here. I was trying to understand about something and the thread quickly went in a direction I hadn’t intended. Believe me, it has been frustrating for me, too – not for the reason you think (“not dancing in a way that suits me”? Really?), but because I don’t know how to fix the bad first impression I made. Thank you for being patient.

This was what seemed to have been being advocated in the video. And I stated that plainly in my question in the first post. I’m not sure how many of the angry responders noticed?

Of course such organizations exist in the Dominican Republic, too. But the question is whether they have the resources to act effectively. Crisis hídrica en República Dominicana: la desaparición de 700 Ríos.

I assume that you can read Spanish, having lived so long in Yucatan. For the benefit of other participants who may not know Spanish, I provide a translation of the two pertinant paragraphs of the linked article.

The serious environmental situation is attributed, according to various studies and research, to the lack of efficient public programs and policies from the State. The problem is depressing and reflects the ineffectiveness of government strategies to protect and conserve natural resources.

Ecological organizations such as the Ecological Society of Cibao, La Laguna and the Council in Defense of Nature have expressed their concerns about the progressive extinction of water resources. Despite the efforts and sacrifices of these movements, the reaction from the state authorities has been unsatisfactory.

They called it “an alarming ecological catastrophe” – 700 rivers and streams “disappeared.” 700! In a country smaller than the Yucatan Peninsula!

You are correct that

Every minute, fishes are disappearing.

39

The question is not whether the fish in this new article are imperiled. Of course they are. So are numerous fish in multiple parts of the world, including the US.

Dismissing the posts of those who attempted to participate in the discussion because you suddenly decided you wanted to narrow the discussion solely to The Problem With Those Latin American Countries was throwing out possible solutions that might have been applicable, albeit with adaptations, to those Latin American Countries.

That said, the fact remains that nobody has the right to presume what is best for another country, insist they know what is in the hearts and minds of an entire country much less region, judge them and find them wanting, then impose their way onto the people of another country. That is colonialism.

I understand that you feel an urgency surrounding this issue and again, I would encourage you to look for studies of progress to find possible solutions instead of stories and videos that contribute to any anxiety.

I do not even know what you mean by this. Of course I read Spanish, why wouldn’t I?

40

I mean that I was confident about linking a Spanish-language article, nothing more. Please assume good intentions. Not everyone in this thread could have read it, hence my providing a partial translation.

I don’t recall doing that, unless you mean agreeing with @dgwdoesthings as to what the “original” topic was.

When you commented earlier,

I can see how my reply created that impression. I can’t seem to find a whole lot definitively to say whether this is what he is doing. His name is Heiko Bleher, a well-known name in ichthyology and the aquarium hobby. I have come across a few controversies about him. He was arrested, and released a few days later, on allegations of smuggling preserved preserved fish tissues in alcohol and formalin, although there seems to be some question as to whether this is even illegal, as he claims there are no restrictions under Brazilian law on the transport of dead, preserved fishes. There is also the question of plagiarized images in some of his books on fishes. But as to whether he is imposing his solutions without engaging the local population, that, I have not been able to determine.

Lucy, I really don’t want to get on your bad side, because you are one of the people I really like here.

The river that flows through the Cambium community is the Rio Magante. Cambium is essentially an expat community; none of my neighbors there are Dominican, except those who have chosen to become naturalized. There is a nice swimming hole there. But I can understand why many of my expat neighbors prefer their swimming pools; upstream, the river comes down through cattle country, including places where runoff from a milking shed flows into it. Downstream, outside Cambium, I often find human feces lying in the open on the streambank – the same streambank where the villagers bathe and wash clothes. As soon as it rains, those feces will be in the river. I’ve never been to Yucatan, so I don’t know whether this is normal there, but this is what I have gotten used to. If I hadn’t gotten used to it, I wouldn’t keep going back.

3 Likes
41

Ntp, we are fine.

There are not so many aboveground rivers here in YUC. We have cenotes! So there is below ground water flow. You should visit at some point because while there is likely commonality with the DR it is also very different, I suspect, both being lovely in their own ways. (Perhaps you will declare this your third home, who knows.)

I do not want to debate this individual any more. Regarding the topic, I think I have expressed my view (that habitats must be restored, that the sovereignty and dignity of any countries involved must be respected) adequately.

I feel the same, which is why I offered this absolutely unsolicited advice:

It is dire, I agree, but it is not hopeless. Do not let yourself be the dog whose tail is wagged for him.

Be well, Jason.

5 Likes
42

Where were you when people were attacking me for suggesting this?

[It would have made more sense to move the relevant posts from the thread where they were off-topic, but here we are.]

43

Okay, knowing that people want better sources than YouTube, I took some time to look into this properly.

This research paper presents a nuanced view, with some examples of negative imapct, some of beneficial effects, and some rather ambiguous: Where are they all from? – sources and sustainability in the ornamental freshwater fish trade. The paper is paywalled, but this article in Fishbio summarizes it: The Aquarium Trade: Fish Conservation Friend or Foe?.

The abstract of tis paper also suggests similar nuance: The aquarium hobby: can sinners become saints in freshwater fish conservation?.

These are examples of the kind of nuanced discussion I had hoped for in this thread.

Another article, on 50 species that only exist in captivity, was not sufficiently academic, so I extracted the fishes from its list and verified them separately. They are:
Banded allotoca – Allotoca goslinei
Potosi pupfish – Cyprinodon alvarezi
La Palma pupfish – Cyprinodon longidorsalis
Charco Palma pupfish – Cyprinodon veronicae
Ameca shiner – Notropis amecae
Kunimazu – Oncorhynchus kawamurae – exists in an introduced range
Golden skiffia – Skiffia francesae
Monterrey platy – Xiphophorus couchianus
Marbled swordtail – Xiphophorus meyeri

Lucy, I promise I didn’t plan it this way – that all but one fish (Kunimazu) on this list were from Mexico. The following quotes are from the article:

Since 2004, La Palma pupfish have been bred at the Toronto Zoo too, but a bacterial disease was detected that led to the death of the captive fish. Fortunately, the species is also being bred separately by private and public breeders.

Charco Palma pupfish are just about 45–50 millimeters in length and are now being bred in aquariums.

A third species from the same former habitat is extinct: Cyprinodon inmemoriam. The specific epithet means just what it looks like: in memoriam, signifying its extinct status.

Now, “private breeders” could be taken to mean instututions; but I also found the following:

Of the Monterrey platy, Wikipedia says, "“Safety populations” are maintained in captivity by the Centro de Resguardo para Peces en Peligro de Extinción at Universidad Autónoma de Nuevo León, Mexico (maintaining both the typical form and X. aff. couchianus), Xiphophorus Genetic Stock Center at Texas State University, United States (maintaining typical form), via the American Livebearer Association that mostly includes private aquarists in the United States (maintaining typical form), and by XNP conservation project members, which include public aquariums, universities and private aquarists in several European countries and the United States (maintaining typical form).

The latter organization also maintains the marbled swordtail.

Look, I don’t like this situation either. I find zoos and public aquaria depressing because the animals do not have nearly as much room as they would on their natural home ranges (the same reason I find “inside cats” depressing, but let’s not get into that here). But if that’s where we’re at, conservation wise, is it better to just let them disappear while waiting for the waterways to be cleaned up and restored?

1 Like