A ‘reference man’ (one who is 70 kilograms, 20–30 years old and 1.7 metres tall) contains on average about 30 trillion human cells and 39 trillion bacteria
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There is study that suggests that water and you hand, rubbing on your skin does same work as you do with soap and you oil levels in skin remains same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzx5zBNz_9A
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Yes, I understand people aren’t sterile environments; that’s why in both my comments I mentioned a person’s natural biome and also specifically used the word “innocuous” both times.
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How can that be? Doesn’t soap remove some skin oils (that’s why washing with soap can sometimes result dry or cracked skin)?
Also, your video link is an interesting example of generational learning in orangutans, but doesn’t cite the study you mentioned, so I’m not sure of its relevance in your reply, unless you are suggesting humans’ soap usage is also only a result of culture and teaching, but that’s untrue.
Eg. I had a bit of molysmophobia that informed my actions re: hygiene when I was very young, and I didn’t pick it up from being taught. Quite the opposite, actually: My mom had to make an active effort to get my preschool self to wash my hands less; it wasn’t something she or anyone else was teaching me or encouraging.
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Well, some place you mustn’t wash with soap and it’s not a natural way of things, so I believe you can do it and be fine, especially if you have short hair.
I never suggested it was the natural way of things (that’s one of MANY reasons those Dr. Squatch “natural soap” commercials annoy me).
Sorry, I know it seems like I’m equivocating a lot.
I’m not trying to force a counterpoint; I’m just trying to understand the efficacy of using water-only to bathe, and what the potential drawbacks might be (I am sure there must be items in both the columns for “pros” and “cons”).
But I feel like I’ve derailed the conversation a bit, so feel free to ignore me, so we can return to the main topic. 
I understand you didn’t say that, I just think it kinda proves it works ok, of course your biota will mix up, but is there any downsides of it? I think having strong immune system nowadays is very valuable, with or without soap.
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Ok, that video makes more sense in the context of your reply.
But at 3:48 they specifically mention soap removes oils from your skin, which contradicts what you said about soap-and-water vs water-and-scrubbing having the same oil levels.
I do see that at 7:08 they acknowledge you might have “trouble” with bacteria that cannot be removed by water alone, but don’t say what that “trouble” might be (odor? infection?) or the severity of the “trouble”.
It’s an interesting little video, but not an authority.
But again, I don’t want to hijack your topic further than I already have.
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I guess that’s my question: what are the downsides of it. I’m cynical enough to doubt there are only pros and no cons.
And the opposite extreme is also used to justify pollution or other destruction. Those that view humans as outside nature or the pinnacle of nature.
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In my opinion, Extinction Rebellion/ other similar groups are doing a good job at starting to force a greater debate about climate/ecological destruction. Getting involved in local causes is important to.
I think your example about contemplating the complexity of groceries is a good one. Consuming less animal products is a positive step feasible to some extent by many people. However, if the world depends on everyone exhaustively researching the impact of every food product they buy, we are doomed. To really make change we should have processes that stop overly destructive products from entering commerce in the first place.
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Thanks for the reply. I don’t think we have Extinction rebellion in Canada, but I’ll check it out.
The biggest block to significant change appears to be at the intersection of Commerce and Politics. Real change in either of those two linked entities is difficult, especially since the common folk are affected by both. And only really care about both (which is understandable) - ‘nature’ (I don’t know why I dislike that word!) is always an afterthought.
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Many thanks! After I wrote that I went out for a frigid walk with my dog (both of us were dressed properly!). I haven’t checked Extinction Rebellion yet.
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Interesting. The second point of their demands is very unrealistic. I am skeptical about such movements, but the goal is ambitious: mobilize 245 million people to civil disobedience. India would be easier than Canada 
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@dianastuder was not promoting the group (although I don’t know if she was - we are not exactly neighbours), but merely providing me with information from a prior post. I am capable of determining what it may stand for, and act accordingly.
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Oh yeah i know. Did I write something wrong??? 
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Oh no! I suspect I read it the wrong way. Language is great, but is easy to misinterpret. I suspect that works for any language. Especially if it is translated. All is good!
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Oh come on, South Africa and Canada are practically next door yo one another. 
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