Platform (Android, iOS, Website): Website
App version number, if a mobile app issue (shown under Settings or About):
Browser, if a website issue (Firefox, Chrome, etc) : Safari
URLs (aka web addresses) of any relevant observations or pages: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/37868526
Screenshots of what you are seeing (instructions for taking a screenshot on computers and mobile devices: https://www.take-a-screenshot.org/):
Description of problem (please provide a set of steps we can use to replicate the issue, and make as many as you need.): Usually when I want to review and disagree with an observation (moving an observation from the species to genus level) I click “Suggest an Identification” → type ‘Ramaria’ → click on the ‘Ramaria’ box that pops up. The normal and expected outcome is to get a ‘potential disagreement’ popup box saying:
" Potential Disagreement
Is the evidence provided enough to confirm this is Ramaria formosa Lömsk Fingersvamp?
I don’t know but I am sure this is Genus Ramaria
No, but it is a member of Genus Ramaria "
For the linked observation no such box is provided, making me unable to disagree with that specific observation. I’ve reviewed a couple thousand observations and this is the only observation exhibiting this behavior.
Presumably that’s because the community taxon is already at genus level Ramaria:
Interesting. Even so, that shouldn’t remove my ability to degree with the specific taxon suggestion.
Also, the title of the observation is ‘Ramaria formosa’ (and not Ramaria) on the observation page: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/37868526
And is listed as listed as ‘Ramaria formosa’ (and not Ramaria) when searching for observations of that user:
The leading ID is what shows up at the top of the page and it can sometimes be different from the Community ID (which can be confusing). The ID at the top is what will show up on maps and in searches by default, the idea being to help IDers find things (I think) that fit their identification filters. Since there are already three IDs for Ramaria, the Community ID is already solidly there - a disagreement with the one species level ID wouldn’t change the CID, so that’s why you can’t disagree (I think).
You could just tick “as good as can be” if you don’t think it’s possible to ID to species and it will go to RG at the genus level.
Thanks for clarifying Community ID vs Leading ID. However, this part is not true:
a disagreement with the one species level ID wouldn’t change the CID, so that’s why you can’t disagree (I think).
See https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/39458347 where I am able to disagree with an observation with 3 previous identical suggestions. I’ve reviewed 8000+ Ramaria observations and for all those observations, regardless of the number of previous confirmations, I have been able to disagree with the Community ID. You are right that a single disagreement wouldn’t change the CID of an observation with 3 agreements - more disagreements would be needed - but for the specific observation above it doesn’t even let me disagree. And in the above observation there is only a single species level suggestion which I am usually able to overrule with a single disagreement. For some reason the observation in my original post does not allow me to disagree with it - a unique behaviour that is not present for any other observation I have seen.
Yes, but in that observation, you are disagreeing with the Community ID - that condition is not met on your example observation. If you enter an ID that disagrees from the community ID (higher taxon, taxon not contained in the CID), you should always get the “disagree” popup.
The leading ID (listed on top) has in my experience always been the same as the CID (unless the original observer suggests an ID and at the same time “User has opted-out of Community Taxon”). However that is not the case here as 1) the observer has not opted-out and 2) it’s a separate user who has made the R. formosa ID suggestion.
The leading ID and CID can differ - you can click the “About” button or “What’s this?” link next to the CID to learn more about the CID and how it is calculated.
People opting out is another way that CID and leading ID can differ. In this case, because 3/4 IDers are at the genus level, it outweighs the dissenting leading ID. If you remove/withdraw your species ID, that should change and you could see the math/score update in the CID box/algorithm results. You might then be able to reenter your species ID as a disagreement, not sure.
Thank you for the “About community taxa”. I’ve read through it and believe it doesn’t cover the issue I have described above. The above observation is the only one I have come across that doesn’t allow ‘dissent’ (as it’s called in the “About community taxa”). And because I can’t disagree/dissent with the species level ID, I can’t change the leading/observation ID to the genus level (which would be the expected behaviour).
because 3/4 IDers are at the genus level, it outweighs the dissenting leading ID. If you remove/withdraw your species ID, that should change and you could see the math/score update in the CID box/algorithm results.
I agree. However, the problem is that that observation does not allow dissent.
You might then be able to reenter your species ID as a disagreement, not sure.
I have tried that and it still doesn’t allow dissent.
I could disagree. Left comments on both for you.
I was unable to disagree too. You should be able to disagree with the species level ID that the observation is labeled as.
Yes, but in all my time identifying, I have never encountered a situation where you can’t disagree with the non-community finer ID. I don’t know if this an error in how the community ID works or in the ability to disagree, but something is definitely wrong here.
@dianastuder When you say that you are able to disagree, do you mean that you were able to enter an ID at the genus level of Ramaria and then get the disagree popup?
I don’t get this when adding an ID of Ramaria. However, if I add an ID of the family above Ramaria, I do get a disagree popup as expected, asking if I disagree with the CID:
@martinax when you say
it doesn’t look like you deleted your initial ID and then entered a new one, as it still shows having been made 3 months ago, so I’m not sure what is going on there.
@dianastuder the observation you disagreed with is not the one subject to this bug report :) Also, if you don’t mind, please remove your tag in observation 37868526. This thread is primarily about a bug and not the specific ID. If he removes his ID suggestion it will make it harder to triage this bug.
@cthawley I just deleted my 3 month old comment. I then suggested Ramaria again but was not given the option to disagree (no dissent box pops up). I did the same ~3 months ago (deleted initial ID, trying again) and had the same problem.
I’m pretty sure the problem with this observation is that iNat is mishandling cases where the account is opted out of community ID, but the individual observation is opted back in, allowing you only to disagree with the community taxon (on the right) instead of with the observation taxon (at the top)
Normally when you disagree with a taxon, it’s with the observation taxon. But if an observer has opted out of community ID, then you’re disagreeing with the community taxon instead. For this observation, the observer has opted out at the account level, but opted back in for this particular observation, so you should be allowed to disagree with the observation taxon.
This should be fixed now.