I had always thought clupeiform fish as the safest and healthiest of all. My logical induction skills had always told me that clupeids must be safe, since they can’t biomagnify poisons because they are primary consumers. But no. Have you heard of mercury poisoning? And ciguatera? That’s nothing compared to what herrings can do, at least in the tropics. I recently knew about the existence of clupeotoxism, and have many, many questions about it, especially since there is very little research available on the internet. I have read the ultimate revision done on this topic but still I must say I know nothing about this situation, other than its high fatality rates and I’m very curious to know what all of you know about this. For instance, many websites relate bonefish, tarpon, and ladyfish to this poisoning but without mentioning any real cases or anything. In case this is true, it would be somewhat concerning since locals eat these fish occasionally. What do you guys know? Tell me you all! If you have any scientific research about it you could share, that would be great.
First time I’m herring of it.
for reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera_fish_poisoning
scary stuff. I would hope that government agencies regularly monitor fish hauls of high-risk species for this stuff in order to protect the populace.
Wait can y’all do me a favor and dumb it down for me? like I understand to an extent but it is a little confusing. (╥﹏╥)
Imagine a simple food chain where species A is the producer, sp. B is the primary consumer and eats sp. A, sp. C is secondary consumer and eats sp. B, and so on…
If a poisonous substance enters this food chain near the “bottom” (through sp. A), this substance will usually be more concentrated in sp. B than in sp. A, because all the poison from all the individuals of sp. A that an individual of sp. B has eaten will stay inside sp. B’s body. For the same reason, sp. C will have a higher concentration than sp. B, sp. D a higher one than sp. C… etc.
This is called biomagnification of poisons.
The logical assumption now is that sp. A or sp. B will be comparably safe to eat because of the lower concentration of poison, and this is usually the case (assuming neither of them produce their own toxins)…
But in this example, the fish which are primary consumers (so sp. B in the example) are poisonous to humans because they accumulate toxins produced by dinoflagellates.
The poison they accumulate doesn’t seem to harm the fish, but for us humans it messes with the nervous system among other things.
Agree. The original post mentions high fatality rates but the link @astra_the_dragon posted lists a less than 1% mortality rate, so I am very confused.
(We eat local fish at least weekly, usually more often, so I appreciate any info.)
Ok I get it now, but if it is poison, that is inside the fish that harms us, shouldn’t we build a natural immunity over time?
@elpatitojuan2 Is this at all tied to the sargazo our beaches experience?
Only if it provides a significant enough advantage over not being immune, doesn’t come with drawbacks that outweigh the positives (and only if it is physiologically possible).
And even then this would happen over relatively long timescales (this seems like a matter of evolutionary adaption rather than something our immune system can adapt to): As @ItsMeLucy mentioned, there is a relatively low fatality rate, and getting poisoned this way seems relatively rare(?). So, being affected by the poison in theory isn’t likely to have an impact biological fitness. And even if you get poisoned, there’s still medicine…
But here’s the thing will the medicine always work, and for those who don’t have immediate access to healthcare the mortality rate increases significantly, which is in most places, where the more commonly known fish to have Clupeotoxin are eaten.
source for this?
Pardon? This is not just a clupeotoxin problem, people who don’t have money generally don’t get health care, let alone good health care.
- There is no universal healthcare. The U.S. government does not provide health benefits to citizens or visitors. Any time you get medical care, someone has to pay for it.-Link
I guess I am asking why do you think American people without money would have a higher mortality rate? I think the less than 1% includes all peoples, regardless of whether or not they received medical care.
I am outside the US, so unfamiliar with how much of the typical US diet is comprised of tropical fish.
Here in the tropics, we eat fish, fresh caught and typically immediately sold, frequently. (My favorite is chac-chí, which thankfully is not a herring.)
Outside of any knowledge of this subject in specific, I’ve heard multiple times that mis-labelling of fish meat is pretty rampant and that there doesn’t seem to be good accountability or quality control for it.
@ItsMeLucy @eyekosaeder But ciguatera is a much more common and well known poisoning caused by eating large and old predatory fish. Avoid any confusion with clupeotoxism. Ciguatera has a 0.1% mortality rate. This new thing to me, clupeotoxism, has a fatality rate of 45 %.
@ItsMeLucy @thinkingofausernamegivesmepain @eyekosaeder I believe this is getting a bit off-topic.
Idk what this means.
You are correct clupeotoxism is new, at least to me. Can you point the direction toward the information you found?
I am currently reading a thesis someone did for CICY but it is scientifically so far above my head I ought not. Thank you for any links you may offer @elpatitojuan2.
Thesis about what? Might it be relevant to this topic?
What do you don’t know?
This poison? How serious is it?