Correct notation for subspecies x subspecies hybrid?

I want to add a hybrid (observation(s) waiting for ID, and “This intergrade / hybrid entity is actually very common where the two types come together in a broad band.” according to the observer) between two subspecies: Barnardius zonarius subsp. semitorquatus and Barnardius zonarius subsp. zonarius.

I’ve created a taxon: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/1458321-Barnardius-zonarius-semitorquatus---zonarius

but I suspect this may be the wrong way to format this name. Do I need to amend this name, and if yes, how?

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We can create intergrades now?

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ah well this shows my ignorance, I wasn’t aware that ssp x ssp is not considered a hybrid. I guess I should delete this taxon in that case

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Isn’t it considered as an infrahybrid ?

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I based my comment on what I was told in a similar situation: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/25055236

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I would think it should be formulated as Barnardius zonarius semitorquatus × zonarius zonarius; as how other taxa are on iNat. And labelled as “infrahybrid”.

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Two threads that may be of value:
https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/suggested-change-to-curator-guide-hybrid-taxa-of-different-ranks/36776/3
https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/can-we-add-subspecies-hybrids/36669

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If this hybrid has not been described and named in the scientific literature, we probably shouldn’t be creating a taxon for it, as we don’t allow undescribed taxons on iNat. (Note that I’m not a fan of this policy, but if we’re going to have it, it should be adhered to consistently.)

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This hybrid has been described and named in the scientific literature, and there are multiple scientific papers discussing it (eg call differences)

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That’s not how most other intergrades/infrahybrids on iNat are formatted, though (among vertebrates at least*). Of the other 13ish bird intergrades (and couple additional non-bird vertebrate intergrades) on iNat, all but one**, including another Australian parrot, are formatted as “Genus species subspecies1 × subspecies2” (which happens to coincide with the format used by eBird, including for the specific example in question), so the original name given to this taxon on iNat—Barnardius zonarius semitorquatus × zonarius—would be more consistent with the rest.

(“Name1 name2 name3 × name4” placed within the species “Genus species” in iNat’s taxonomic hierarchy implies “Genus species [subspecies1 × subspecies2]” or “Genus species subspecies1 × Genus species subspecies2”—i.e., that the third and fourth words in that name are the epithets of two subspecies within that overarching species—just as “Name1 name2 × name3” implies “Genus [species1 × species2]” or “Genus species1 × Genus species2”—i.e., that name2 and name3 are the epithets of two species within that genus.)

*Several intergrades among Lepidoptera have the format “Genus species subspecies1 × genus species subspecies2”; unfortunately the fix a little while back that allowed genus names to be capitalized after × appears to have only applied to hybrids [and genushybrids if that wasn’t already the case—I unfortunately can’t remember], not infrahybrids [that’s not a reason to disallow that expanded format, though, but rather a reason to allow capitals after the × in infrahybrids on iNat]. I won’t speak to the situation with the varied formats of plant hybrid formulas on iNaturalist, since while the ICZN doesn’t regulate the format of hybrid formulas, the ICN does. “Genus species1 × species2” (iNat’s guideline for hybrid name formats), or “Genus species subspecies1 × subspecies2”, is explicitly against the rules for plants/algae/fungi/etc.—but “Genus species subspecies1 × species subspecies2” would be just as wrong, as the ICN requires including the genus [abbreviated or not] after the × in hybrid formulas. Whether ICN’s rules should be applied to animal hybrids too on iNat, with the genus being included after the × in all cases, is a different issue, but I don’t see a situation where having “species subspecies” sans “Genus” after the × in an intergrade would be considered more correct than just “subspecies” after the × in an intergrade)

**(which contra iNat’s guidelines uses x rather than ×)

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Yes, thanks for bringing that up. Repeating the initial subspecific epithet would indeed be redundant - in the same way repeating the generic name in a specific hybrid would be so. My mistake.

  • Australian Ringneck (Twenty-eight x Port Lincoln) Barnardius zonarius semitorquatus x zonarius

Good one @thebeachcomber
I have a couple of intergrades, identified as Australian Ringneck and noted as B.z.semitorquatus x zonarius.

Will be interesting to see the reaction, as even subspecies are often ignored by identifiers for various reasons.

Further information:

eBird taxonomy update intergrades

First noted:
“The south-western forest form, semitorquatus, with its all-green
belly and prominent red frons, intergrades sharply with the smaller,
inland and arid-country form zonarius, with its broad yellow-
breast-band and vestigial red frons, on the eastern margins of the
sclerophyll forest of jarrah-marr-kam (Fisher 1970; Serverty &
Whittell 1976; Forshaw 1981). Following widespread land clear-
ing, zonarius genes have now introgressed semitorquatus on the
Swan coastal plain (Fisher 1970).”

“Hybrid Zones in Australian Birds
Julian Ford
To cite this article: Julian Ford (1987) Hybrid Zones in Australian Birds, Emu - Austral Ornithology,
87:3, 158-178, DOI: 10.1071/MU9870158”

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