Explaining Forum Rules After "Complainative" Thread

this is an international forum, it happens to have more English than other languages because iNaturalist started in an English speaking area. While we’ve discussed splitting off forums by language at some point, I’m not sure it would happen, maybe more onboarding of translation would be more beneficial. We have also discussed having moderators whose primary language is not English; thus far I think this is limited to Spanish. In any event, iNat staff can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding it is not appropriate to ask others to communicate in English here.

Also, without getting into specifics, and with the recognition that this is an international forum… demanding that others speak English (or any other given language) may seem harmless in one geographic location but have some very troubling or malicious meaning if interpreted from a different location or culture. So for that reason, I think it’s something to stay far, far away from on here.

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I’m having a bit of trouble understanding some of the logic that makes a problem out of a discussion that gives people a venue for airing “peeves”.

Wouldn’t that be a forum for identifying issues that multiple people have and using the “crowd” discussion to get an idea of the specific nature of the issue and how much if an issue it is? Then it could be moved to another discussion specific to that topic, for seeking further clarification and solutions.

Or can an individual only raise a peeve if they (in the absence of any idea of how many others share the gripe) are willing to go to the effort of putting together a post that seeks to understand the issue and make it better?

And do all discussions have to be about specific topics? Or is it that wide ranging discussions are acceptable only if all the topics raised are “positive” (whatever that means in the view of the moderator).

Are forum users not considered mature enough to sort the wheat from the chaff in a discussion?

Are moderators not able to reprimand individuals who take discussions in unacceptable directions, rather than closing down the whole discussion? (Is this a new feature suggestion?)

Finally, responding to the launching of a thread on the “Biggest Peeve Among Naturalists” that is intended to “see what gets on our community’s nerve” with the admonishment that " this Forum is specifically not meant to be a place for complaining or airing grievances" seems a bit over the top.

Personally I support the idea of a discussion thread where peeves can be raised, if only just to see (a) whether they are justified (perhaps it is just a matter of someone not knowing enough about how iNat works), or (b) how many others have the same problem.

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I understand that different languages, and their translation, are difficult. Especially with double translation (ie Russian to Portuguese to English). I do not speak a language other than english (I can read Latin based languages better), but even with google translate I can get the sense of what a person has meant to say. If I misunderstood I can ask them. A Portuguese speaker can respond in their own language if they want, and if my translation of their translation does not make sense, I can go back to the original and piece it together. The problem lies with me - If I cannot understand a language, it is up to me to sort out what that person meant. rather than “speak English dammit”.

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Pedir e exigir são duas coisas completamente diferentes, mas já percebi que há uma exagerada sensibilidade com tudo o que possa, eventualmente, ofender alguém… reflexos dos tempos modernos, suponho. Na minha terra temos uma expressão para isso: “mariquices a mais”.

Mas, por enquanto, vivemos sob a tirania do politicamente correcto… seja feita a vossa vontade.

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I never said it was created by staff, we also miss some important annotations, so what, they don’t matter at all? No, they do matter and one day will appear, for now we only have fields for them. I don’t under what you wanted to say actually.

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I wasn’t saying they don’t matter! Just that they don’t represent any official Inaturalist policy in particular

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Right, that’s what staff should think about.

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Estou usando o Google translate, então peço desculpas por qualquer erro:

A ausência de tom, linguagem corporal e outras dicas não verbais para adicionar contexto às discussões on-line é bastante notória. Pedir pode parecer exigente em texto.

Você menciona que isso é tolo no seu país. Pode ser (supondo que você possa falar por uma nação inteira), mas seu país não é todo país. Frases como “Você deve falar [idioma] aqui” podem ser inócuas no seu país, mas são muito cobradas em outros lugares no momento. Outras pessoas não são “sensíveis demais” para interpretar suas palavras através das lentes de suas próprias experiências.

Tudo isso poderia ser apenas um mal-entendido … mas chamá-lo de “politicamente correto” era apenas desdenhoso e hostil.

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I believe you quoted birdwhisperer quoting me. I’ll emphasize again that I wasn’t offended by anyone involved, I think most of us have things that bother us, whether they’re logical or not, and it can be fun to share them with others. We all need to vent.

However, I don’t think an international online forum is a great place for that. Because of the speed and reach of the internet, a large number of people can start piling on quickly, and can get ugly. I’ve read through that thread a few times, and am sympathetic to a lot of people’s posts, but reading one unhappy thing after another is not enjoyable, and more importantly it’s not particularly productive. It’s not what this forum is supposed to be about. So as a way of setting a boundary while the forum is still growing and finding its identity, I closed it.

I’m not convinced it’s worth sharing online if it’s not something you would like get perspectives on or discuss ways of improving the situation. I’ve never said one needs to propose a solution, but the post about the issue should be framed in a way that is more than simply stating it.

I think most discussions are more enjoyable and definitely more productive if they’re more focused, but not everything needs to be that way. There are plenty of wide-ranging discussions here. Also, “positive” does mean “happy”, I think “constructive” is a more apt word.

Certainly, but it was the topic’s premise that was the issue, not individual posts.

As far as I can tell, that topic was meant to be only for one’s pet peeves about other naturalists, not about iNaturalist, although it quickly branched off into iNat peeves as well. If you have a problem with iNaturalist, either start a topic in General or make a Feature Request with a proposed fix to the problem. I think this system has worked pretty well so far.

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Hello,

You’ve made several mistakes, not in your writing but in (not) compreending what I had wrote (I never said that I was speaking for my country). It’s not your fault… It’s mine. I used several expressions that doesn’t make any sense when translated letter by letter. We are not small childen and we are not made of porcelain… Why would I be offended by someone asking me to write in the language in wich a certain conversation is taking place? (in the words of a great comedian: offenses are taken, not given)

The guy who I asked to write in english was kind enought to do so and what he wrote was a little different from what I got from google translator. He didn’t get offended…

Literally anything that me or you can say will offend someone in the world. So, if I’m not being unkind to someone, I will ask what I feel that I need to ask. If you get offended just tell me and if I can understand why you got offended, I will apologise. Other than that, I will not “be” in a place where I cannot speak freely. That is a right that too many people fought hard to have…

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Well, my comprehension was based on what Google translate said you’d written. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :woman_shrugging:

Google relayed as something like (abbreviated):“I asked, not demanded. People are too sensitive. In my country we call that “more silliness”. It’s all too much political correctness.”

Which honestly seemed a bit hostile and dismissive, prompting my reply.

Kind of a nice demo of the problems with both text-only communication and some online translation services.

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That’s my exact point… It’s better if I do the translation. Less mistakes. Like someone said before: lets assume people mean no harm.

I know the moderators mean no harm, but seeing someone try to limit the speach of others gets me crazy. Freedom of speach is one of our greatest accomplishments…

Well, its too late to philosophize… Merry Christmas, either you celebrate it or not. :wink:

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O politicamente correto não tem nada a ver com isso. Use o idioma que desejar. Se eu quiser saber o que você disse, tentarei traduzi-lo.
Google tradutor usado.

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Perdão - eu não tinha lido todos os comentários. My post is redundant.

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Sure, but if someone doesn’t know English (or isn’t comfortable conversing at the level they do know), then they can’t write in it. Automated translators are their best bet at that point.

…and in that case there is no reason to ask them to use the translator up front to post in English. I can just as easily use it after they post in their language. :slightly_smiling_face:

And Merry Christmas and other holidays to you too!

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It’s better if you can do it, if the person doesn’t know English I clearly see how their attemtps of translating could be no better than Google Translate work.

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I will not use machine translation to write my comment in a language I don’t know - I cannot tell if the machine is saying what I tell it to. But I value a translation into English to give me a sense (if not in detail) of what was said.

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in any event i think if one does so it is good to say so, to help the other person understand a possible source of misunderstandings.

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Good point to actually state that Google tranalate was used. I have used it a few times to respond on the forum but also leave comments on iNat’, but I have not stated anything about quoting the translator. I will in the future.

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