Feedback on moving posts from one topic to a similar but different topic

I strongly disagree with this post being moved from the thread on how to make IDing more rewarding. I particularly object to the fact that the move was preceded by neither a warning nor a suggestion that it might fit better in another topic. That is, the authors of the affected posts were not asked whether they wanted their content relocated to a completely different context, nor provided an opportunity to adapt their comments if they were really off-topic.

The ideas I propose are not about the CV algorithm (how it analyzes images to make suggestions); they are about how (new) users engage with the ID process and how iNat’s interface could be improved to encourage more awareness of this – this is relevant for working to resolve two challenges I mentioned earlier in the thread: the small number of users who help make IDs, and the amount of wrong IDs that need to be corrected. Improving the CV training would help with the latter and I would like to see changes here, but the underlying issue is not just wrong IDs, but users who do not know how to assess IDs (whether from the CV or otherwise).

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Objection noted, and fair point that I could have done more to communicate about the need for the move - I will try to do better next time. By the time I saw the string of 10 replies discussing details of how CV implementation could be improved (for new users and others), it seemed like a productive discussion for this topic, or maybe for a feature request, but was veering away from the OP of “Should There Be More Reward Mechanisms for Identifiers?” There were (and still are) excellent earlier posts in that topic by you and others expressing the point that CV improvements would be one way to reward identifiers. But a detailed discussion of what those improvements should or shouldn’t be was best continued in a different topic.

Again, apologies if the abruptness of the move might have seemed punitive - the intent was rather to help a productive discussion continue in a more fitting context, and help prevent the other topic from veering in a different direction.

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(You can put this side conversation in the thread on forum moderation if you wish; it occurred to me only after posting my initial response that it should probably have gone there.)

It isn’t that I feel it is punitive. I entered into a particular discussion, with a particular purpose. I am not at all OK with my words being taken and put somewhere else without my permission and without notice. I want the posts back where they were. Context matters. It changes the meaning of my post. I was not writing about improving the AI algorithm, but about something else entirely.

Would the posts even have been moved if there had not happened to be a currently active thread on a related topic?

I think the way people interact with the CV is an important subject, and I would have been open to putting it in a thread of its own, but putting it here distracts from what I was trying to suggest, because this is a completely different issue than the choices about how the CV is trained.

I don’t see how moving from “should there be rewards for IDers” to “what can we do to make IDing more rewarding” is going off-topic. This strikes me as a natural and productive progression of the discussion given that the overwhelming tenor of the responses has been to reject the idea of rewards in the sense of gamification of IDs. But this doesn’t mean that the underlying problem brought up by the thread is therefore irrelevant.

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It’s hard to engage in any sort of meaningful and coherent conversation if one’s words might arbitrarily be moved to some other thread at any time because someone decided that the post fit better there. It gives users an impression they have no control over their own contributions and the discussion that they are responding to. It also makes decisions on their behalf about what they were trying to communicate; when this is markedly different than their own intention, users might understandably be rather unhappy about this.

If I had wanted my post to appear in a different thread I would have put it there in the first place. I did not, because I do not see it as relevant to that thread. I was interested in how users interact with the CV and the ID process more broadly, not about how the CV algorithm is trained. This is not at all the same thing.

While I recognize that sometimes it is important to stay strictly on topic, in general forum discussions are by nature rather fluid and develop organically. They are not meetings where a formal agenda has to be meticulously adhered to. The thread was not posted in feature requests; it was a question inspired by the challenge of how to increase IDing activity. My contribution was meant to as a reflection on this – I see the weaknesses of the user onboarding process as directly and inextricably related to some of the factors that discourage users from IDing. If the OP has not complained about the thread going too far from their original intent, why is it a problem that the discussion has evolved? Just because the initial thread title happens to have been “Should there be rewards for IDers?” rather than “How can we encourage more IDing?”, why should that automatically make any post that is not explicitly about “rewards” off-topic and irrelevant?

I’ve participated in a variety of forums with different discussion and moderation cultures, some rather free-for-all, some more strictly moderated. But even in the latter, I’ve never experienced anything like the insistence on keeping threads “tidy” that sometimes seems to surface here. The course that the discussion took did not break any forum rules that I am aware of, nor were there heated disagreements or tensions that would have merited intervention.

Nor was the thread devolving into mere rehashing of familiar complaints – on the contrary, the whole point of my posts was to try to imagine ways forward: figuring out other ways to encourage changes in user behavior as an alternative to a rewards system that virtually all participants in the thread had agreed was unlikely to produce the desired result. So I am therefore fairly miffed (to put it mildly) that an attempt to constructively brainstorm possible solutions is considered “off-topic” and not appropriate for the thread.

A too-narrow definition of “on-topicness” tends to stifle discussion, particularly when the criteria for what makes something off-topic are not transparent, because people end up worrying about whether their words will be policed rather than leaving space for unexpected insights that might emerge.

It is also less than ideal that the forum interface indicates when posts have been split out of a thread, but does not indicate in the target thread that they were originally posted somewhere else, meaning that moving posts can create incoherence rather than making a discussion easier to follow.

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I moved the above posts to a separate topic per the suggestion.

@spiphany I hear and understand your frustration, and it is a good reminder to me that not all moderation decisions here are easy or straightforward.

Since I already heard from another of the @forum_moderators that moving the posts in question out of the original topic was appropriate, I’m not prepared to move them back there without their further input here first.

Yes, I would have, and I would have created a new topic for them instead. And since you earlier expressed openness to

I am willing to do that now if that would be an acceptable compromise. In that case (or now, for that matter) it could be linked to in support of comments on the original topic.

If the only acceptable resolution is to move the posts back to their original location, however, then I will defer to the larger group of moderators for that decision.

[EDITED TO ADD:] fwiw if it had just been your post, there would have been no issue. It was the ensuing side discussion that proceeded to dominate the topic that caught my attention.

I don’t see why difficult decisions needed to be made at all. The posts that were moved were not any more “off-topic” than numerous other posts earlier in the thread. The “off-topic” discussion was civil and constructive; nobody had complained that it had strayed too far from the original intent. The thread was and is not – so far as I can tell – in need of moderation, except that for some reason “off-topic” is being interpreted so narrowly as to make any discussion virtually impossible. If absolutely no deviation from the original topic is allowed, then we might as well close the forum because there will be nothing left to say. Conversations are a way to collectively think through and work out ideas; as part of this process, they often move in directions that could not have been envisioned at the outset. So the attitude that posts must be moved if they don’t fulfill some unspecified criteria for adherence to the original topic strikes me as counter to the very idea of having a discussion.

Or have I missed some nuance here that necessitates breaking up the conversation? I have seen no reason given except that moderators decided that posts needed to be moved. What would have been the harm of allowing the thread to continue to follow the course it was taking? People were engaged, they were considering ideas about how we might tackle certain challenges in a far more productive manner than many past (“on-topic”!) discussions have taken.

The only potential concern I see is that if one were interested in ideas for improving onboarding, a thread with a title about rewards for IDers is not the most obvious place to look – but if I am looking for past discussions on a topic, it is fairly impossible to find anything without using the search function anyway, in which case it seems to me that the thread title is not so crucial.

Now, if one wanted to suggest that some parts of the discussion might be less likely to get buried if they were put in their own thread, that is a somewhat different matter – but that should be a choice agreed upon by the participants, not simply imposed upon us in a manner that I find, frankly, to be not only heavy-handed but also disrespectful and patronizing, as though we are not capable of thinking about how our posts fit into the conversation or assessing whether they are relevant.

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For what it is worth, I am the OP of the said thread and I saw value in the contributions of @spiphany.

Unless an OP is absent from a discussion, I think the decision for on-off topic or the need to move/split/copy a post should be initiated by the OP. (Of course I am new here and do not know all the intricacies of governance yet.)

One thing I appreciate is how polite and communicative the mods are. If only they could ease the reins just a smidge.

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After reading though everything, I think I’m for moving the posts back to the original topic if Discourse’s chronological merge is working, or making a separate topic about CV onboarding, as the posts in question are less about the algorithm and more about how CV is introduced to users.

I don’t think “arbitrarily” is accurate in this case. @jdmore thought about his actions and made a deliberate decision. Whether it was the best decision can up for debate, and I can understand being frustrated by it, but it wasn’t arbitrarily made as far as I can tell. I don’t want to speak for him, but I imagine he felt the discussion was a better fit for the CV improvement discussion.

I hear you but it’s not possible or often advisable for moderators to obtain permission from every contributor to move posts, and moving posts is a mechanism that is clearly described in the Forum Guidelines and listed as something moderators may do. But, best practice is to write a post below the posts you moved, provide a reason, and include link to the original topic - we’ll strive to do that consistently in the future. If you think the wrong decision was made, please say something in Forum Feedback.

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@tiwane Thank you for the detailed response. Speaks well to your integrity. And kudos to @jdmore for the time investment and kind communications.

Being a mod is no easy feat. One of my several involvements is to own/mod group content with ~ 5,000 opinionated members for 15+ years, and whew never a dull moment. I also have zero blocked members, which is a result of my belief that every challenge can be resolved through effective correspondence.

Go team!

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As things stand, I would prefer that the posts be put back where they were originally, even though I suppose the moderator note has effectively killed any further possibility for fruitful discussion in that thread.

Had it been suggested before any action was taken that there might be value in moving the posts into their own thread for more focused discussion – assuming that was the intention** – yes, I would likely have been on board with that. But when it had already been decided that posts were to be moved regardless, without any consultation whatsoever, the proposition acquires something of the taste of a Hobson’s choice.

And at present, the amount of trust I have that a new thread would respect my intentions is fairly close to zero.

I realize that I am not the only participant in the conversation that was moved, just the only one who has been vocal about expressing displeasure. If other participants’ preferences about how to move forward are different than my own, of course I would be willing to try to find a solution that would satisfy their needs as well as mine.


** When posts are moved with no explanation whatsoever to a topic that is only marginally related to the actual concern, this is not an obvious conclusion. When this happens in a thread that was productive and not violating any forum guidelines, the lack of warning and transparent communication is both baffling and unnecessarily disruptive. I would expect such drastic measures only in cases where the conversation has already hopelessly deteriorated and delay would risk further upsetting people who are already upset, or where participants have already demonstrated that they are unwilling to modify their behavior.

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@spiphany

I feel your frustration. May I kindly suggest you give “the system” the benefit of the doubt? They are likely doing their best and with good intentions. The reins feel a bit tight, yes, but seems like the hearts are in the right place.

Post a few more things and see how they go. When I first joined the forums, my post was moved too. I inquired and politely objected, and it was moved back along with timely explanations. So I think the mods are really listening the members.

I got the notifications for this thread because of a “bell with an exclamation mark” in my own timeline. To help me understand things here, could you outline where you posted initially and where it was moved to? Do you know why the ! is within a bell? What would be the difference if the bell had no ! ?

Ok now please smile. https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/15djkmq/oc_nasty_bug/?rdt=52685

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I would countersuggest that referring to it as “the system” is not a good way to achieve this, as that term, for many of us, refers to a much larger system which has long since removed any doubt.

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Well, the best I could do is put the posts back in this category, Discourse didn’t allow me to put them back in their original positions. I added a staff notice below them.

Can you please elaborate? This is cryptic. If you have specific feedback, please provide it, please don’t allude to something vague.

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I was trying to say that equating iNaturalist Forum moderation with “the system” is not a good idea, because “the system” is often used to refer to the machinery of the state. For that system, there can be no “benefit of the doubt” because there isn’t any doubt as to their intentions. To recommend a non-loaded rephrasing of spiphany’s comment:

May I kindly suggest you give the Forum moderators the benefit of the doubt? They are likely doing their best and with good intentions.

Which cannot be said about “the system.”

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@spiphany the failure to communicate sufficiently ahead of the move was entirely my fault. Please know that I have heard your concerns and learned how to do better going forward. I hope you will accept my apologies.

And for what it’s worth, yes, that was my intention, however poorly implemented.

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Thanks!

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It isn’t that I expect moderators to get explicit consent from all participants for every action they take; I’m aware that this is not feasible and that this would hinder them from being able to effectively act in the case of conflicts or wilful violations of forum guidelines.

It’s about respect. Moving posts is disruptive and breaks up a conversation, even if it is done with the best of intentions. Assuming that there are no urgent circumstances that require immediate action, asking in advance, or at least checking in, getting a sense of the desires of those involved, and giving them a heads-up instead of simply deciding for them, costs nothing and signals to participants that they are taken seriously and that their agency is being respected, as well as reducing the likelihood of misunderstandings and hurt feelings (not to mention avoiding the unpleasant shock of having one’s posts relocated out of the blue). The fact that this is evidently not the default approach seems to me to be rather concerning.

I realize that a forum is not a democracy. But a healthy forum culture depends on participants feeling that they can freely and safely discuss their ideas within the parameters of the forum guidelines, and that they can rely on moderators to facilitate this. The flip side is that it also requires that moderators know when not to interfere – that threads are not micro-managed to such a degree that this stifles discussion. Here it seems to me that in most cases moving posts should be the last, not the first, tool used to manage a difficult conversation. I will note that this is not the first incident where moderation decisions related to assessments of off-topicness have been felt to go beyond what was necessary to ensure an unimpeded exchange of ideas.


(It is possible that some of my comments in this discussion have been overly blunt. I am not, however, currently calm enough to package my thoughts into a socially appropriate form or to reliably judge what that would be. I do want to say that my comments are in no way personally directed at anyone in the moderation team, nor am I trying to assign blame. I believe that everyone acted with the best of intentions, though this does not make it hurt any less.

It also seems to me that my reactions may be somewhat out of proportion, most likely for reasons that have nothing to do with anyone here. I work with texts for a living. Words and sentences and how they are arranged in relation to one another is a fairly fundamental part of how I order my world. A disruption to that, particularly one that was not in any way anticipated, cuts rather close to home. I will step back for a bit until I have gotten myself on a more even keel.)

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It might be worth checking someone’s user profile before telling them to chill out and trust the system. ;-) In this case, they’re someone who’s already been here for years and participated in thousands of threads and might have some experience informing their assessment, not someone who just joined a few weeks ago.

@tristanmcknight

If you read my response carefully, you will see that I said “May I kindly suggest you give “the system” the benefit of the doubt?”. I did not express or imply to “chill out” in any shape or form.

I do look at profiles but also do digest the content with a grain of salt. For example my stats suggest I read 2,200 posts in 64 days of visits. I can assure you with 100% certainty that I did not read 2,200 posts, or 1,100, or even 550.

Kindly.