People's thoughts on duck hunting?

Well, first we need a good definition of “overpopulation”, I guess.

Does geese overpopulation mainly mean more geese than we are comfortable with now days?

I recall reading that diary records of the De Anza expedition (earliest Spanish explorers in SF Bay Area) reported the din from vast flocks of geese would drown out all other sounds when they took off from wetlands. (I will look for the reference).

While we have more geese now than people like to see in their parks, I am not sure if it is more than were here 500 years ago.

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Thank you @michaelpirrello, the post office would be most convenient for me, if it happens to be in stock. But, lots of other options :)
https://www.fws.gov/birds/get-involved/duck-stamp/buy-duck-stamp.php

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Well said. For those that aren’t aware, the artwork for duck stamps changes year to year, and the selection of the featured art/duck is a competition. I’ve had the opportunity to review the submitted artwork (including the junior competition) and it’s pretty neat. https://www.fws.gov/birds/get-involved/duck-stamp/duck-stamp-contest-and-event-information.php

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bush meat in Africa - has another layer of poaching to supply expats.
No longer about ‘need’
Feeding the hungry often seems far from reality.

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Not what I meant.
If a conservationist studied a species, and then set out guidelines. To preserve this species, its habitat, the network of biodiversity it depends on … what should we do.

Is utterly different to, because we want enough of these ducks for hunters yippee we can also maintain a tiny population of Endangered species

Deliberate management to conserve a charismatic umbrella species, benefits a whole range of biodiversity, as a deliberate bonus. Can. Could.

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I agree that overpopulation is a subjective determination, but in some cases, the increase in goose populations has been shown to have negative impacts on species whose populations have decreased in recent years.

Linked here is a study that found that the increase in light goose populations (Chen caerulescens, C. rossii) has had a negative impact on Arctic-nesting shorebird populations. See the article for a more nuanced discussion of the proposed causal relationships, but the reduction of ground cover and attraction of predators to areas surrounding goose colonies are the primary ones. I believe this is one of several articles looking at this same phenomenon, as I previously read one looking more specifically at the issue of predator attraction to nesting sites.

Ecological relationships are often complex, and I am sure that increases in goose populations are just one contributing factor in the overall decline of Arctic-nesting shorebirds (cf. climate change). However, I think that when human actions lead to a dramatic increase in native species’ populations, “negative” impacts on the broader ecosystem can result, even if they are more latent than those brought on by introduced species. Whether ecological changes are “good” or “bad” is an artificial determination based on the effects we are able to perceive and how we as humans are impacted. Based on my understanding, however, ecosystems are “healthier” (more resilient, etc.) when they are more balanced, which is why most biodiversity indices include metrics of species richness, evenness, and dominance instead of simple abundance. While it is not a statement of fact to say that these geese are overabundant in the Arctic, the article implies that without effective management, the increasing trend of goose populations will fuel the decreasing trend in shorebird populations and will further the dominance of geese in the ecosystem.

As far as it relates to the discussion of waterfowl hunting, the article brings up some points (not necessarily answers) that I found relevant:

Recent estimates of Central and Eastern Arctic light goose breeding colonies indicate that breeding populations increased by more than 400% between 1973 and 2008

  • Based on this figure, it is clear that the light goose population in this part of the world has grown dramatically in recent history. Based on this statistic alone, it is difficult to determine the extent to which this applies to other waterfowl species/populations in North America and how these numbers compare to previous eras. However, I think it is safe to say that, at the very least, the growth in goose populations has outpaced that of most other bird species in the same time frame.
  • The article mentions that due to the “overabundance” of white geese, bag limits were increased and a spring season was added, but this had little effect on the overall population. To me, the lack of population response to more liberal hunting regulations is indicative of a few things. First, current hunting practices and harvest numbers for these species in North America (I don’t want to overgeneralize) are likely sustainable, and hunting pressure is not a limiting factor on overall population size. Second, in this particular case, land-use changes have an impact on the goose population that outsizes the impact of hunting. This suggests that hunting is not always an effective method of population management, per se. I would say that for light geese in these areas, hunting does not remotely threaten the light goose population but has only a negligible positive impact on nesting shorebird populations.
  • The article points to wintering site food subsidies from agriculture as the primary cause of the population increase. These claims are made with linked citations, though I have not personally read through them yet. Even if these claims are true (feel free to critique this claim; I myself am skeptical that goose populations only began to benefit from winter subsidies in the 1970s), I don’t think that this devalues the importance of wetland management practices and game refuges. However, I wonder whether the population increase from the availability of winter food from agriculture fields overblows the impacts of the perceived conservation bias toward waterfowl as game species. As a note, I think this bias certainly exists, but might not be proportionally reflected by the increase in wetland birds relative to other groups since 1970.

Finally, on a somewhat separate note, I think that there are valid arguments against hunting on a personal basis, and I myself am not a hunter. However, I think the argument against hunting as a practice on the grounds of non-interventionism in the natural world overlooks the fact that we are passively altering ecosystems throughout our everyday life. Effective management requires intervening in the natural world, frequently to correct for anthropogenic ecological problems. Hunting is probably not always the best or most effective way to deal with species whose populations have grown large enough to negatively impact the populations of rare or declining species. However, in cases where scientific findings show that population control is in the best interest of maintaining a diverse environment, I think that hunting to manage the overpopulation of a native species is no different than hunting to eradicate destructive invasive species.

P.S. This post probably seems long and ranty but I just found the discussion of the term “overpopulation” to be interesting, and it reminded me of this article

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I can’t speak for the whole continent, and certainly in conflict regions the main driver of bushmeat is actual necessity. Within my home country, however, the demand for bushmeat is primarily in larger cities such as Ndola, Kitwe and Lusaka, where it is both less available and more expensive than farmed meat and (quite popular) soy alternatives, but is sought out because some poorly-worded health advice in NGO-produced pamphlets years ago fueled widespread misconception of health benefits.

There is local consumption, both legal and illegal, in rural areas, but the greater part of the overharvest of our wildlife for bushmeat is not based on consumer need, although in many cases the poachers are in a generational poverty trap which limits their ability to move into more sustainable fields, so your point of their need for the money is well made.

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Good point!

Vegetarian, 12 years now. Hence, I don’t need to hunt, or eat farmed animals, for that matter. Many who do these things do not need to.

Yet many did not outgrow it, did they? I have fired a gun on firing ranges before, so I have experience in what that is about; but it really does not attract me. As a Boy Scout, I enjoyed the novelty; but once the novelty wore off, it held no further interest for me.

I am with you. And how do we go from such a premise to conserving, say, critically endangered vernal pool invertebrates? I like those states who offer an option – either through vehicle licensing or state income tax returns – to donate to the conservation of “Nongame and endangered wildlife.” The viability of those programs shows that there are plenty of people who will pay for conservation without expecting the “reward” of being able to kill it.

I grew up in suburban areas, and I didn’t need hunting as a pretext to go back to the wild.

I like to bird in State Parks and National Forests, mostly. And now that I am in California, one of my favorite waterfowl birding locations is a wetlands preserve that was acquired by the city as a buffer for a wastewater treatment plant. Signs at the entrance say, “No hunting, and no access to hunting.” This time of year, it is full of Northern Shovelers, Green-winged Teals, Gadwalls, American Coots, and also those non-swimming waterbirds that were mentioned as not benefitting so much from duck hunting: American Avocet, Black-necked Stilt, Willet, and Long-billed Curlew. So there are certainly other conservation options than duck stamps.

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Quite the discussion. I have never had an “innate” need to hunt and I have been vegetarian for over 30 years, however if a person is going to eat meat perhaps hunting offsets the demand for factory farm raised animals that live short, horrid lives. Here in New Mexico lead shot is not allowed for duck hunting but as others have said here, it really should be banned for all hunting. Another Golden Eagle with lead poisoning was taken to the nearby wildlife rehab center here and it isn’t looking good. Honestly because of hunting, I sometimes don’t report certain species (ducks, prairie dogs) or don’t report exact locations on iNaturalist.

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I found some sort of raptor that looked like it had been shot recently😒

Honestly, I don’t appreciate those who go out shooting ‘for fun’, blasting away at anything that moves. They cause serious harm to the environment.
Then you get those who have a gun, and use it on anything they deem a threat, be it an eagle, or snake, or spider-(i seriously don’t understand the whole “Oh yeah here in Australia we live with all sorts of dangerous critters” and then when they come across one they feel it’s their duty to blast it into oblivion.
I have more appreciation for those who keep the pest population down- (here it’s foxes, cats, kangaroos)

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Welcome to the Forum! If you feel like it, continue to contribute, as there are lots of interesting topics available.

@jasonhernandez74 that passage you quoted from my post was actually part of my quote from Thoreau, so whether any of the people referenced did indeed outgrow hunting would be a question for Henry.
For myself, I no longer hunt. Growing up (I took the hunter safety course when I was 11 but before that would go along just for the outting) hunting was a family affair, with brother, dad, our dog, cousins and friends and their dogs. Some of my earliest memories are of time spent hunting: being woken up early, enjoying one of my dad’s scrumptious breakfasts of dry toast, sitting on a tailgate surrounded by family and a conflagration of dogs with a cup of coffee in hand wondering how in the world anyone could drink the stuff (it was probably Folgers, at best), then out walking thru sugar beet fields jumping ring-necked pheasants that would cause a pause to the stories being told as we went. And afterwards skinning the pheasants, plucking the feathers from dove and quail, looking into gizzards (crops i should have said, tho we did clean and eat the gizzards) to see what they had been eating, learning about feather shape and placement, and then having a delicious dinner sometime later. I learned a lot, and possibly that back ground was influential in my obtaining a degree in wildlife management, but after going to college and moving away I no longer had that family connection so my hunting stopped. My two sons, on their own accord, one of which recently graduated from the same school in the same program as I did, the younger one still in that same program, have both gone thru the hunter safety course but aren’t avid hunters. One thing I’ve found interesting over the years is that I have pursued game, work and photographs in the same landscapes, and the way I have perceived those landscapes, what I was in tune to, alert to, the detail I noticed or didn’t notice, was quite different depending on the pursuit. I think the times when I was most thoroughly alert to my surroundings was when I was hunting.

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i think it would be fun if someone made a VR game that allowed you to hunt realistic-looking ducks (with your choice of gun, bow, or camera) – like a modern-day Duck Hunt. i thought for a moment that Duck Season was that game, but that’s more of a trippy horror game.

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It’s unlikely anyone hunts for need these days, given the expense involved.

Yeah. “Benefit” refers to some perspective. For example, the benefit to ducks is seen as keeping a duck population high. But that isn’t how populations behave in nature. If overpopulated ducks drop dead from starvation, that is a benefit to scavengers. People ought to leave wild animals alone. We have done enough damage with our selfish and with our good intentions.

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There’re people who hunt for need, in USA and Canada as example, and you can find info about them, as well as there’re people survivng on mushrooms. Life can be hard.

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Send a link. It isn’t possible to survive on mushrooms.

I didn’t mean solely on them, but gathering them to have a proper meal, not like most people love shroom hunting. Look up a forum theme about photographing shrooms, I don’t remember the name, sorry.

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I agree Ben, the question is: do we? Based on comparing changes in habitat between waterfowl and say, shorebirds, it doesn’t seem that we do (at least in the U.S.,) but I strongly suspect most of the world does this by default.

The situation may be different in countries with lower Gini coefficient and a high GDP (like Iceland or Finland) and thus the space/time to prioritize putting funding and effort towards preserving habitat and species.

You have to take into account that in most societies, priorities run towards exploitative rather than conservative use of natural spaces and species. I don’t defend that system, only hope to understand it to see how we can better align ‘our’ interests with that of nature since that’s the path of least resistance currently as I see it.

Interesting, it may be a matter of overcoming personal prejudice or sensibilities and trying instead to think about the species rather than the individuals. If a wetland wasn’t preserved, would there be the space for as much diversity and numbers of healthy individuals and migratory species in your area? Something to consider.

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