Man, I don’t know if you are being sarcastic, trying to be the wise, revolutionary philosopher trying to make us, idiots, to question and break down the dogmatic affirmations about basic ecology we have been indoctrinated to believe as axiomatic and undeniable, or if you’re simply being ignorant.
In case you are the latter thing, a native species is a species growing in its natural conditions, in its natural place without human intervention.
Now I see, you are searching for claims to flip the argument up. What you replied was a description about pioneers and what they do and you’re just introduce a completely different argument out of nothing.
You cannot even guarantee that those two species are providing that ecological service. If they are, that still means they are very different and definitely do not fill the niche (not Nietzsche) of cottonwoods and willows. They interact with the other wildlife in many ways the Autumn olives do not.
Remember that this is a thread about wild edibles foraging. Back when Euell Gibbons was alive, he wrote about this: the “pristine” or “intact” ecosystems are some of the poorer places for foraging; he found that the “waste places” had a much higher abundance and diversity of wild edibles, many of which were “weeds” and nonnative species. His most famous work, Stalking the Wild Asparagus – the title itself pays homage to a nonnative species – has entire chapters dedicated, for example, to amaranth, dandelion, day lily, Japanese knotweed, wild mustard, lamb’s quarter (which he called pigweed), and purslane. From a wild foods perspective, these are some of the most valuable. So, understandably, a wild foods forager may have a different perspective on nonnative plants than a pure ecologist would.
I’ve heard the same too, that’s why I thought an “Invasive species” is just a really really bad “weed” for scientists .
so… does this mean “Invasive species” existed before humans were even around?
who decides where it belongs or doesn’t belong? by natural you mean it got there by non-human ways?
But aren’t many “Invasive species” also Pioneer species?
Can a “Native” species be invasive too?
So in other words they have naturalized? Won’t every “Invasive species” eventually become “Native”? How did “Native” species evolve in the first place? and why can’t we evolve new species as well?
Not sarcastic, I just never learned a concrete definition of "Native’ that didn’t have loopholes that break the whole definition making the term useless.
So any species that formed Symbiosis with Homo sapiens is not “Native” no more?
What about new species that have been created thru domestication like Cucumis melo, Cucurbita pepo, Zea mays, Solanum lycopersicum, Solanum tuberosum and the new Genus Brassicoraphanus which is an intergeneric hybrid between Brassica x Raphnaus.
Where is Brassicoraphanus “Native” to? Where it was first created right?
Perhaps but they allow many other species to grow thanks to holding the soil & improving with nitrogen fixation. Essentially fixing broken soils to support more life.
Agreed, many of these plants provide more food overall for both human & Animal. I get sadden when the birds eat all the wineberries, clearing my local enviroment is tell me it needs more berries, like Wineberries, Black raspberries ect.
I also learned why Blackberries became thorny, it’s because of deer. Deer also don’t eat Garlic mustard, Shiso, Garlic, Spicebush, all of which are “Invasive” to Maryland (They all grow like weeds, most abundant plants in my local forrests).
Garlic mustard is a great plant; I like it. Its taste is great on a ham sandwich and it provides pollen for the bees. But in North America, it is so invasive, it crowds out nodding trillium, spring beauty, wild leek, trailing arbutus, toothwort, ostrich fern, and a bunch of other edibles, some of which are also great with ham and most of which have much-needed early pollen.
No, because native species don’t do what invasive species do. I mentioned that one species can be native in one place but invasive in another, but it can’t be both at the same time in the same place.
If left in place long enough, an invasive species could integrate into the ecological web of a region, yes, but in the time before that occurs, it will do serious damage to the ecosystem. For example the round goby was introduced to the Great Lakes by Russian ships. It has basically replaced the vast majority of bottom dwelling fish in the places where it has spread. It has been there long enough now, though, that they’ve become a staple of the diet of water snakes (genus Nerodia) in the region. Exterminating them now would have a negative effect on the water snakes that now rely on them as a food source. You could think of it as having become ‘naturalized’. However, even if the spotted goby is now part of the ecological web of the Great Lakes, all the fish species that were displaced by it previously will not be coming back. That damage is done.
There’s also no guarantee that every invasive species will eventually integrate. Ecological webs can collapse completely due to the pressures of invasive species. For example, kudzu is an invasive species in the southern US and it grows so quickly that it can become the ONLY plant within a habitat far sooner than other species can adapt to its presence. It has become so prevalent that it earned the nickname “the vine that swallowed the South”.
That’s a separate process that doesn’t have anything to do with species being invasive or not. Evolution occurs with all species as new generations gain adaptations through natural selection to better fit their environments. Eventually, they are significantly different enough from their ancestors that they may be considered a new species.
I think you are right that many invasive species are also pioneer species in the sense that pioneer species are those that have traits that allow them to thrive in disturbed environments, and those traits often translate to potential for invasiveness when the species is not native to an area. However, native pioneer species are not invasive in their native region—they simply evolved to exploit natural disturbances (falling trees, fires, floods, etc.) as part of the process of ecological succession.
As for your argument that invasive species perform useful ecological functions such as soil retention, etc.—sure, but those are functions that native species would be performing anyways if they weren’t outcompeted by the invasives. One big distinction here is that native species perform ecological functions that the invasives cannot, such as serving as food and host plants for native animals. Many insects, for instance, have evolved relationships with particular plant species—they can’t eat or lay their eggs on or make galls or leafmines on just any plant.
This leads to an advantage for the non-natives—they aren’t subject to the natural pressures of native organisms (you’ll notice that non-native plants often look pristine compared to natives, which are often covered in holes and browsing damage and insect galls and whatnot), which gives them a leg up in competing with the native plants. Fewer native plants leads to fewer native organisms that rely on them, and so forth all the way up the food chain.
You mention spicebush (Lindera benzoin) as being invasive to Maryland, but I’m pretty certain they are native, and they definitely get browsed by deer (I know, because they keep eating the ones I planted!). Their berries also serve as food for native birds, and they are host plants to numerous native insects, such as the spicebush swallowtail (Papilio troilus).
I don’t know, many “Native” species in my area are equally invasive as the ones labeled “Invasive”. “Native” Blackberries absolutely fill the “Invasive species” niche in my ecosystem, same with “Native” Spicebush (Lindera benzoin). I have to prune back Blackberries & Spicebush just to clear a pathway thru the forrest, Wineberries never do this. Spicebush is 90% of my local forrest understory, even the crazy “Invasive” Bush Honeysuckles don’t do this.
Why is it that the “Invasive Species” fail at their 1 job & the “Native” species fill their “Invasive” niche instead?
Perhaps but don’t deer also eat everything else like said Trilliums? There’s a reason why they don’t eat Garlic Mustard, it doesn’t taste good to them.
I’ve also seen Garlic Mustard in decline in my forrest simply by just leaving it alone, the chemical it pumps thru it’s roots to destroy Mycorrhiza is expensive thus eventually once it get’s established garlic mustard stops pumping out those chemicals & eventually the Local Mycorrhiza colonizes it. I’ve seen it happen many times. If I understand this correctly, Garlic Mustard is become more & more “Native” each year.
Isn’t this because the Homo sapiens in the ecosystem don’t know how to use Kudzu?
It’s not invasive in Asia because the Homo sapiens there know how to use it & harvest it to keep it from getting out of hand. Kudzu certainly evolved with Homo sapiens, it would’ve never got so “invasive” if we know how to & were willing to harvest it.
In other words, this is something I can do as the Plant Breeder in the ecosystem?
If I cross all 5 Domesticated Squash species into 1 homogonous Introgresses Landracae Population, it will be different enough to be called a new species right?
If so, this would make my new species “Native” to my region because my wild garden is where it origenated from right?
I’ve always thought of “Native” meant Origin, in that where any plant originated from is where it’s “Native” too right?
If “Naitve” species can evolve, why can’t the “Invasive species” also evolve too?
Surely every generation, each plant is slowly evolving, changing & adapting to their enviroment.
I see, not every Native animal have adapted to uses the Invasives as a food source yet, but many of them do. The climate is changing, if they don’t adapt they die out.
I think this is why it’s important to keep both “Natives” & “Invasives” around. If a “Native” grows to much, take out the native & if the “Invasive” grows to much, take out the “Invasive”. That way both can naturalize & be in balance.
Yea it’s labeled as “Native” in my region but it certainly doesn’t behve like a “Native” in my local ecosystem if that makes sense. Idk why the deer in my area don’t eat spicebush and why they do in your area but in my area Spicebush is the most abundant shrub in the understory. Some of it needs to be replaced with Wineberry & Mayapples to add more biodiversity as few plants grow in the understory of spicebush shade.
I love spicebush & I save seeds to plant in areas where it’s not growing just like with everyplant that I like & taste good! I always blow dandelion heads in places with compact soils to help rebuild them.
Yea… I don’t know much about birds but I’ve never seen much birds go after spicebush berries in my area, so many times if I didn’t harvest anything the berries just remian there until they eventally drop off. However the birds somehow go bonkerz for wineberry, they often clean the whole bush before I even have a chance to get just 1 berry (They know what’s good, can’t blame them too much).
What’s odd is the “Native” Black Raspberry (Rubus occidentalis) birds mostly ignore or only harvest a very few berries. I Suspect they prefer red berries over Black berries cuz I enjoy both equally. The Black Raspberries in my ecosystem rely on the Homo sapien in the ecosystem to spread their seeds.
This is what happens in my local ecosystem if the Homo sapien doesn’t harvest Black Raspberries. They just dry on the plant & don’t spread their seeds.
This never happens with Wineberries, those bushes are stripped clean. The only time I can get a harvest is if a Leaf was hiding wineberries from the birds field of view (Which I often do before they ripen).
Again, no. Firstly, artificially hybridizing plants is not the same as making a new species. You may produce a new hybrid or cultivar, but it will not be a new species. Secondly, I’ve explained the difference between the ecological functions of native and invasive species already. If you are artificially breeding plants that are not already a part of the ecosystem, they are not native species because they do not have an established role in the ecological web of the region.
False. Again we’re not talking about cultivated settings here, so how people use it in Asia vs. America is not relevant. In the wild, in its native range, kudzu does not crowd out all the other plants in the ecosystem because natural conditions (predation, disease, competition from other plants, etc.) keep it from taking over completely as it does in the southern US. It is an integrated part of the ecological web in its native range. This simultaneously keeps it in check and allows it to fulfill a role that supports other species and increases biodiversity rather than crowding everything else out.
So what makes it Artificial hybridization? Are Homo sapiens not able to make/encourage natural hybridizations? What actually is the difference between natural hybridization vs artificial hybridization?
Even if I cross all the species? Even if I crosses between genera? At what point will it be a new species? When it goes feral? when it goes “Invasive” or when it eventually becomes “Native”?
In Asia many people Harvest wild Kudzu, in America some foragers are learning how to harvest wild Kudzu too. Is it really a cultivated setting if it’s harvested from the wild?
So which species did Homo sapiens evolve with?
Are Homo sapiens Native or Invasive?
Sure, that’s why we need to hunt more. Also, not everything else, deer don’t eat wild leek, since it doesn’t taste good to them. There are tons of other deer-proof natives, like these.
Also Curious if anyone also Gardens these wild edibles too!
I planted Ostrich Fern along a creek last year, for the fiddleheads. Am not quite sure, though, what counts as a “wild edible” in a gardening context. Trees and shrubs that might fit the concept include American Persimmon, Paw Paw, and Service Berry. Maybe “wild” varieties of Blueberry. Have been looking into Morrel mushrooms, which might thrive in moist spots around dead/dying Ash trees here. We have lots of Cattails in our farm pond but have never tried preparing them to eat. Wineberry grows here, too, but I don’t much care for the fruit. Oh, and come to think of it, it’s not native.
The undercurrent here seems to be: “Invasive” = not under human control.
The majority of our food is nonnative. Wheat, oats, corn; soybeans; apples, pears, peaches, actually most major fruits; carrots, beets, broccoli, actually most vegetables; cattle, pigs, chickens – all these are mainly grown and produced in places where they are nonnative. But that’s okay because they are under strict human control. They become “invasive” when they step outside the boundaries we have drawn for them. How dare they assert themselves? Don’t they know that we are the Masters of the Universe?
Farming and conservation are both mainly about micromanaging nonhuman species and their interactions. I find less and less difference between the two.
The problem with truly invasive species isn’t some sort of ego problem on the part of humans being butthurt that we can’t control them, but the fact that, as has been mentioned many times here, that they can cause real ecological harm. Not all introduced species become invasive, but it is an established fact that certain species do in fact cause real harm with introduced into areas to which they are not native
The selection process. You suggested crossing 5 domesticated squash species into one hybrid. Even if you were to do that successfully to create a single new cultivar, do you honestly think that would ever occur naturally without your intervention? Natural selection ensures only those traits that are most suitable are passed on. If you are selecting the traits that are passed on, how do you expect to ensure that you are only choosing the most suitable traits?
We’ve drifted pretty far from the original discussion, and I don’t sense a satisfied end to your questions anytime soon. I’m going to assume you do not have much in the way of formal ecology education (that’s not meant to be a jab, just a guess)? At this point I would recommend perhaps looking into ecology textbooks and lectures (enroll in a formal course if you can). I imagine building up some ecology background knowledge would give you the info you need to answer some of your own questions.
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