I am glad you are taking this approach in a reasonable and realistic matter, because I think your main claim is wise, but I believe this doesn’t justify @professor_porcupine’s ideas. I will explain:
Oh, for the…
I had written a beautiful text yesterday and for some reason only the first sentence was preserved. I am infinitely lazy as well as busy (and extremely frustrated, of course) to rewrite it, so I will summarize.
So I had said that pristine ecosystems basically do not always mean old growth forests, that Eastern North America was so different in the past and that it is now overforested, that where I live, I have experienced halophyte communities to be the ecosystem most diverse in edibles (and they are a quite pristine ecosystem in my area). I also said that many of those invasives you mentioned have native North American counterparts, and that this argument does not justify Mr. Porcue’s plans to propagate extensively a plant with a highly invasive character, providing a real menace to the ecosystem (and to native edibles for sure!) that is already deteriorated.
I have not followed this thread by now, but I will try to catch up and respond, just give me time.
As these being terms that are not directly related, they can overlap (yes, many invasives are pioneers). I am male and am from Mexico, but it doesn’t mean that male humans equal Mexicans. If an invasive is a pioneer as well, it doesn’t mean that every invasive is a pioneer (which in fact, usually pioneers, but not always) or that every pioneer is invasive (being this much more distant from reality). I hope I am clear, if not, make me know so.
So, sorry for labeling you as sarcastic! Then, knowing that your questions are genuine I will just make my effort to answer them and to tell you what can be bad for the ecology.
Oh good question. Probably not. If a plant is planted where it could have perfectly grown naturally, it would still be native.
They aren’t native to anywhere because the never belonged to the ecology of a place; they do not exist in nature.
That can perfectly be done by a native species without implying a risk to the ecosystem.
I never imagined I could eat ferns.
Introduced species are usually the invasives. A native species could become invasive in its native range, though. For example, the deer pest in Eastern North America. They are native, they have always been there, but thanks to the loss of cougars, bears, and wolves, and to the amount of new forest there is today (many of which shouldn’t even be there), they are out of the ecological balance they would be in if their predators still existed and controlled their populations. Without them, populations have risen insanely and this excess of deers makes them invasive, because they are making tangible and significant damage to the ecosystem by over-predating plants.
And the Pacific Northwest US has licorice ferns (Polypodium glycyrrhiza), which are actually pretty choice forage (I found out after the first time I tried one that you eat the rhizome, not the fronds, though -_- )
I’ve never been able to find it, I want to introduce it to my local Forrest because I’ve heard it taste great! I also want to domesticate it & cross it with other Allium spp of the Subgenus Anguinum in Section Anguinum, as these species in that section are very likely cross compatible with Ramps thus I can Diversify the species & continue it’s evolution towards better adaptability, better flavor & yield.
Here’s the phylogenic Tree of Ramps, do you want to join my domestication efforts?
I wonder how? They don’t make seeds so how do you exactly save “seeds” from plants that make none? I haven’t studied Ferns so feel free to share what you know about them.
hmm… but that still doesn’t address the root cause of what’s causing their advantage in the first place. Often many “Invasives”: are only “invasive” because we keep reinforcing an effect on the ecosystem. Lots of run off from agriculture, contruction, ect like Herbicides, excessive fertilizers, ect create disbalances that “invasives” take advantage of. Simply removing “Invasives” without addressing the root cause won’t solve the ecological problem, it will still be there.
For example I know exactly what Dandelions are doing in compacted soils, they are fixing the soil. I know exactly what Autumn Olive & Black Locusts are growing in poor soils, they’re a pioneer species currently fixing out ecological/soil problem.
Sometimes these pioneer species are labeled as “Invasive” sometimes as “Native”. I don’t understand why we box things into “Native” vs “Invasive” when both can change ecosystems for the better. Sometimes both “Native” or “Invasive” can change the ecosystem for the worse like with too much deer for example, a “Native” species behaving like an “Invasive”. If you understand what I’m saying.
Cultivar is not my goal, I want to create a Genetically diverse landrace meaning a genetically diverse population of all species introgressed into it.
I’m a Homo sapien, am I natural or not? is the entire Homo sapien species & everything they do Natural or Artificial?
This is Exactly what I’m selecting for, I just facilitate the hybrid swarm & Let Nature Select out from the offspring what can survive in my climate/enviroment.
Then I get to select for flavor, yeild, ease of harvest, ect.
You are correct, I dropped out of College which is why I have a very different perspective.
Indeed, the first Homo sapiens that arrived in North America used to burn forests to clear them for gardening/foraging. Often the best Blueberries harvest happen after there’s been a fire. Many species are adapted to occasional fires that are slowly fading away, many of them are really amazing wild edibles.
Unless by pristine ecosystems, you mean wayyy before the arrival of Native Americans.
In that case the climate has changed the ecosystems a lot! Some species went extinct while other new ones were created.
What “Native” edibles do you forage? Which ones need improvement to kick start their domestication effort?
For example I want to domesticate Podophyllum peltatum, but there isn’t enough diversity of species in the Eastern U.S. meaning Asian Mayapples are needed to diversify the American Population of Mayapples to improve them! I don’t want Mayapples to die out in American forrests & climate change may not favor them thus I want to be proactive & cross Podophyllum peltaum with all the other Podophyllum spp. to allow nature to select the fittest of all offspring while I select for biggest besting high yielding fruits.
If I limit myself to only Podophyllum peltatum I would be missing out on so much diversity that exists in the world. I do this for the love of Mayapples of which I don’t want them to go extinct! Even Blue Mayapples exist!
I think I understand what your saying, I just don’t understand why make the distinction between “Invasive” vs “Native” when both can & will eventually enrich an ecosystem (As Nature eventually tends towards balance).
I’m happy when a Pioneer species shows up to fix poor soils, whether that species is “Invasive” or “Native”, it’s desperately needed in the ecosystem. If the “Native” is better at fixing soils I go with the “Native”, if the “Invasive” is better than I go with the “Invasive”, if both are doing good then I encourage both!
I love “Native” Plants & I love “Invasives” just as much!
To explain nuances, I think valuable species at treat of being extinct should be saved regardless of their “Invasive” or “Native” Status if you get what I’m saying. Many wild tomato ancestors could go extinct where they evolved so I think it’s right to grow them all over just incase they go extinct elsewhere as a living seed bank!
So many wild areas get bulldozed that could’ve contain valuable plants that shoud’ve at least had their seeds saved.
No worries, I appreciate your effort as I want to learn as much as I can everyday!
I’m learning a lot by engaging on these forums so thanking for sharing what you know!
What about *Homo saipens" encouraging hybrids/selection towards a trait of a “Native” species? I suspect Native Americans are the reason why Pawpaw (Asimina triloba) is so wide spread, why so much diversity in flavor exist & why the fruits have maintained the huge size! It’s very plausible that some offspring living in the wild may actually be semi-wild & undergone some Homo sapien selection pressures.
I suspect the same thing happend with Mayapples (Podophyllum peltatum) and maybe Purple Passionflower (Passiflora incarnata) since these are perennial, they are much slower to revert back to their pre-human influence wild state unlike the Eastern Agriculture Complex species which are annuals thus quickly revert back to wild forms without Human Symbiosis or Homo sapien selection pressure.
For example Cucurbita pepo used to be 2 species until Native Americans introgressed Cucurbita fraterna x Cucurbita texana into modernday Cucurbita pepo. Pure Cucurbita fraterna or Cucurbita texana are pretty much extinct by now as the “Wild” plants may or may not be feral/semi wild plants, the Human selection pressure may still be present in some wild populations (Which may explain some populations having non bitter fruit).
What do you mean by “Exist in Nature”???
How can it “Exist” but not “Exist in Nature”, I’m so confused.
Or is all Man Made selection pressures automatically not Natural?
Big question, are Homo sapiens able to put selection pressures on species Naturally? or is every Homo sapien selection pressure always 100% not natural by definition?
I think back to Bears eating the tastiest Blackberries as a “Natural” Selection Pressure but when a Human does the same thing it’s automatically a “Artificial” Selection Pressure.
Do we as *Homo sapiens" consider ourselves as part of Nature or not? and if we are part of Nature is everything we do natural or only somethings we do natural & the rest artificial?
Is a “Native” plant where it originated from or does it mean something else?
That’s what makes me rethink “Native” vs “Invasive” as concepts.
If both “Native” & “Invasive” species when thrown out of balance can do Environmental harm, perhaps the focus should be on what caused the disbalance?
Can a “Native” species cause a “Non-Native” to become “Invasive” & can an “Invasive” species naturalize & no longer be “Invasive”? I’m starting to think “Native” & “Invasive” are fluid cycles of species dominance in an ecosystem.
Humans don’t behave like other animals. We are not subject to environmental pressures to the same degree as other organisms, and because those environmental pressures have little effect on us, we have an outsized, and often destructive effect on our environments (even if we do not intend it to be destructive. It’s just that we don’t feel the negative effects as acutely as other species do when we make the wrong choices. It can be hard to know when we’ve made a bad choice without feeling that negative feedback from the environment.). Many of the things that we do to the environment are not things that would occur without human influence. That is what I mean by artificial. Humans in that sense are not natural. A conscientious person will do what they can to minimize their negative impacts on the environment. That means leaving it to its own devices with as little interference as possible. The only exception should be when we have caused harm (e.g. by introducing invasive species), that we attempt to remedy it. Before you act according to a ‘different perspective’ you’d better have some strong evidence first that it is not an erroneous perspective.
The distinction between “natural” and “artificial” selection has nothing to do with some idea that humans are outside of nature.
It has to do with intent.
Environments that are altered by humans may create selection pressure – for example the peppered moth is a classic example of natural selection, where dark morphs were more likely to survive than light ones in the polluted conditions of industrial England.
This is natural selection because humans were not putting moths together and breeding them in an effort to produce particular traits – even though the conditions that led to the selection pressure were entirely created by humans.
Interactions between plants and the animals that pollinate or consume them are likewise natural selection. Even if your bear preferentially eats berries that it finds taste particularly good, it is not doing so in order to ensure that more tasty berries will grow in the future. The seeds that it excretes may or may not survive the digestion process and may or may not land in a location that is suitable for a new berry plant to grow. Likewise, an insect attracted by a flower’s nectar and/or pollen may carry pollen from one plant to another, but it is not doing so in order to ensure that there will be nectar-rich flowers for the next generation of its species.
This is completely different than a human taking a brush and moving the pollen from one plant to the pistils of another one with the express purpose of selecting for particular traits, and then saving the seeds that are produced and growing them under controlled conditions. It is artificial, not natural, because it is unlikely that the particular cross would have happened as part of normal ecosystem interactions, because the offspring is being cared for rather than being left to survive or not on its own, because the modifications that are happening through the artificial selection may not be in the interest of the plant under conditions where it is not being cared for by humans (e.g., it may make it more vulnerable to pests, or require more energy to produce fruit with little corresponding reproductive benefit, etc.)
I’ve always found it weird that some people say dryad’s saddle tastes like melons, because I tried cooking them, and they just tasted like mushrooms. Am I doing something wrong?
Also, on an unrelated note, Shenandoah national park in West Virginia lets you pick wild blackberries if you find them in the woods, so long as you don’t pick too many. And they were so incredibly delicious! I don’t even like blackberries that much, but they were so sweet and tart and juicy… but I wasn’t the only one who liked them- I saw a young black bear wander across the trail about a hundred feet in front of me! I definitely recommend going, not just for the delicious berries.
I have never had any trilliums eaten by deer.
We need to hunt more deer because the humans have decided to wipe out the natural predators.
I think you’ve off topic by a large leap into you wanting to play Mother Nature or God by making your own new plants. Kinda like the people who think it wise to mix the genetics of animals.
I transplanted potted Ostrich firm bought from a local nursery. They’ve been offering a line of “native” plants. Of course, “native” does not necessarily mean “native” to my site, maybe not even native to my county. The ferns I’ve observed on my farm are Southern Lady ferns. I’ve lived here for more than 30 years and assume those are wild, native plants.
Not really, but thanks for the tree. I feel that ramps are perfect as they are. I always say, Don’t mess with perfection.
Also, as a general reply to your leek project, they are the ones that really need our help. Humans have cut down forests to the point of de-leek-ing them, a lot of the remaining leeks have been overharvested by restaurants and overenthusiastic foragers.
Plant them, let them be, let them spread, then harvest a little. That’s my mantra for ephemeral edibles.
I have seen wild leek seeds offered by at least one seed company. I ordered some a couple years ago. I didn’t have any success, I think because we don’t get enough freezing days in winter here. Wild leek is more of an Appalachian species that requires cold dormancy in order to germinate.
You are toghing on some of the deep divides in ecological thought. As in, how is a cultigen like Zea mays less natural than the fungus which only exists in leafcutter ant nests where the ants actively cultivate it and keep it pure? If ants thought of themselves as apart from nature, they would say that their fungus “is not native to anywhere because it only exists in cultivation.”
I would advise you not to hybridize mayapples if you intend to release them into the wild. The Asian mayapples are adapted to Asia; mixing their genes into American mayapples may make the American mayapples less suited to North American conditions.
Also, I’m not sure what you mean by landrace. Normally, a landrace means a cultivar adapted to the conditions of a specific locality. Wild plants, especially those with limited dispersal capability, are already landraces, which is why restorationists advise sourcing plants from the same watershed as the site being restored, if possible – they are already the best adapted to that location.
Bringing this back to the original topic of whether any of us forage and/or garden wild edibles: gardening wild edibles – as opposed to domesticating them – would follow the same idea as those restoration plantings. That is, source the wild edibles from nearby so as to have the genetics already adapted to that locality. I see from your iNaturalist page that you are mostly observing wild edible plants. I encourage you to continue cataloging these, to get a clear picture of what wild edibles are already present in your area before bringing in new ones which may have adverse effects on the land.
And although @mftasp has called us back on-topic, there was a comment addressed to me which I feel it is only fair to permit me to respond to:
You could have fooled me. Every conservation strategy I ever hear about involves heavy and detailed intervention, often to the point of tracking every individual.
Doesn’t that circle back to everything Homo sapiens do is artificial by definition? What is Natural Human activity in the ecosystem we inhabit?
Also aren’t we as Homo sapiens among the most important/impactful species in any ecosystem? We can be “Invasive” but we can also be stewards towards any ecosystem & enrich it for our benefit or for the species we selectively care about.
Eventually we find our role in the ecosystem & achieve Balance with Nature. Is this balance natural or artificial?
Even if the “Invasive” species is helpful towards the ecosystem? For example I know Wineberries are Helpful towards my local ecosystem by proving food in thick shade for me (and the Birds) where no other “Native” Rubus species can. This is why I spread more wineberries everywhere I go, the ecosystems demand for them is higher than the current supply.
If I didn’t do this, there would be even less Wineberries thus less food for me & the birds. I also want to hybridize Wineberry with Black Rapsberry to evolve both species further into something more fit than either pure species! That way I can create the ultimate BestRubus spp. for my local ecosystem.
I belive this is the role of the Homo sapien in any ecosystem they inhabit, to fix what’s broken & steward it.
I see, so it’s an unintentional selection pressure. I do these all the time just by Foraging & Gardening.
For example an intentional selection pressure on Tomatoes would be bigger fruit.
An unintentional selection pressure would be never picking dirty tomatoes, thus eventually your landrace has stronger fruit stems that can keep the tomatoes above the dirt.
I understand my gardening/foraging style will have selection pressure I intentionally put on but also those I don’t notice that are unintentional.
The intentional ones are “artificial” and the unintentional ones are “natural” right?
I see, but what if my breeding intention is to make it more wild/feral while still yeilding a lot? My goal as a plant breeder is to improve the wild edibles, especially in the adaptability! I’m trying to make my wild edibles even more fit for their environment.
I do this by bringing together all kinds of cross-compatible species to make a hybrid swarm, let nature select the strongest most fit offspring then I select for what I like.
This is exactly what i want to do with Mayapples (Podophyllum peltatum), I want to improve the wild species & make it even better! I want to make Mayapples “Invasive”, is it Natural if I make it more fit for it’s environment or not? Or it’s only “artificial” if I make the fruits yeild more & taste better?
Interesting, tart like a raspberry? Did the Blackberries have thorns by any chance?
Blackberries are also a wild edible I want to domesticate & improve. Were they only delicious in one bush or delicious everywhere you found them?
If so I’d save seeds from the most delicious tasting blackberries to continue selecting for that trait.
I feel you, I think the love for wild edibles should also extend to taking care of them too! Which is exactly why I encourage every wild edible that tastes good to me so there’s more of it. I do this by planting/spiting out seeds to ideal locations, pruning back plants blocking sunlight, carefully harvesting in a way that keeps the wild edible thriving, saving seeds as insurance, ect.
Them being over harvested is a reason why I want to domesticate them & improve them, also because the climate is changing & I want to be proactive (Just in case the species becomes at risk for going extinct). Forrest gardening really interests me, I feel I can make a positive impact on my diet & my local ecosystem at the same time by Participating in it.
Good info, taking notes for when I get a good place to grow them.
oh my… so the ecological perspective hasn’t been ironed out & is still debated to this day? I forget that Ants also “techically” domesticate species as well, I’ve seen them take care of aphids. It’s Natural when they do it but artifical when we do it with other species (I don’t think any Homo sapiens are farming Aphids right? ).
hmm… but if the American Mayapple genetics will continue to live on in my hybrid swarm, I’m not sure how this makes them less suited to North American Conditions?
As surely some offsprings from this hybrid swarm will be even more suited to North American Conditions than either American or Asian Mayapple Parents.
A Landrace is a Genetically Diverse crop Population that’s adapted to local conditions.
They’re like Heirlooms except wayyy more genetically diverse by stretching “True to type” to encompass all diversity. The result can be thought of as a new subspecies or species specific for your climate as that’s exactly how it behaves.
To contrast them, Heirlooms are genetically inbred to be “True to Type” vs Landraces are Genetically Diverse to Stretch “True to Type” to what you as the gardener value.
For example, I’m landracing Squash (Cucurbita pepo), I gather as many diverse cultivars as I can for Cucurbita pepo and let them all cross hybridize. From the resulting offspring I only save seeds from plants that I like & survive/thrive. I do this on repeat until I get a Population that thrives in my local climate & that also taste good, yeilds good & isn’t bitter.
I eventually do the same thing with all other species of Squash so I live a Landrace of each species. Then I use mentor Pollination to overcome hybridization barriers between species, letting the fresh offspring cross with their parent species until the lines between species blur so much that I have what can be called a new species.
Technically I don’t have to create a new species to be considered a landrace but I want to. I want to do the same thing will all crop species, whether they’re a wild edible or domesticated edible or an “Invasive” species. As Long as they have potential I see, I want to domesticate them & turn it into a landrace!
Yes! I agree with those restorationist on that advise as it’s exactly my thinking, source seeds from populations best adapted to the spot you want them to grow (Sometimes they’re already growing, sometimes they need improvement). Likewise you wouldn’t want to save seeds from populations that are diseased or struggling in good conditions. Ideally the goal is to save seeds from the healthiest most fit plants. Think of a Landrace as a Semi Wild Heirloom Crop Species that are best adapted to your growing conditions.
It’s not just edible value (Altho that’s my favorite), You can also certainly landrace for ornamental value, medicinal value, pollinator value, ecosytem restorationg value (Altho this one is easy & often already done for you) ect.
I agree! Altho I also feel Domesticating them is also useful in a restoration project.
Apparently the reason why Pyrus calleryana is “Invasive” is because the Pears are small. Literally if we select for larger fruited types of Callery Pears, we could switch the selection pressure away from small fruits towards larger fruit that birds can’t swallow thus poop out seeds to more places.
I also think we could Graft onto Callery pear rootstocks so many incredible huge fruited Pome Delicious Pome Fruits, truly enrich the food abundance for the Ecosystem!
Currently Callergy Pears are only good after frost has hit them & they’ve bletted, then they kind of taste like Apple sauce that isn’t super sour, which is just Okay as a crop thus it’s desperately could use Crop Improvement.
The way I see it, Domestication, Plant Breeding, Foraging, Gardening, Conservation can all work beautifully together!
Foraging Mulberries is what sparked my interest into Plants. The appreciation I have for Mulberries makes me want to spread them everywhere, domesticate them, Forage them, Cultivate them & Conserve them for future generations! For the Love of Mulberries!
You seem to have missed or simply disregarded the point of every argument I’ve made and every example I’ve given so far, and I’ve done my best to make them simple enough for anyone to understand. Invasive species damage the ecosystem, they do not help it. I won’t waste my time responding anymore if you aren’t interested in actually listening.
Yea… I’ve just accepted we have different perspectives on things.
Thank you for teaching me the other perspective, I’ve learned a lot.
Just to clarify this is every “Invasive” species in every situation?
I understand in some situations “Invasive” species can do harm to other species but Surely the opposite is also true with different “Invasive” species?
I’ve seen “Invasive” species protecting young saplings from deer browse by being smelly/thorny. But would you say a “Native” species should do this job instead, even if it’s not the best at it?
Yes, the damage they cause is the basis for the label. I explained that much in my first response to your earlier statements conflating invasives and pioneer species.
You can chalk it up to different perspectives if you want to, but just remember that for a perspective to be valid, it has to be aligned with the facts.
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