Please educate your students in proper procedures

Educators
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Honest Confessions:
I have/had gone through it before writing the post but still had certain opinions to express.

Yes that was the problem. There are many. I admit I couldn’t go through all the posts of all such threads and haven’t yet, as I personally am not much interested/concerned about it. I have a Gross Idea of the same which is sufficient for me. I didn’t ask any question here. Only submitted my opinion for some exceptional cases thinking it is relevant to the subject, where an Yes/No type comment (or neglecting it as irrelevant) is sufficient to end the matter

Objective was not to cite a specific scenario for a single Individual Crocodile. ‘Crocodile’ was used for ease of getting the point. Several species of Turtles falling under CR category are bred and subsequently released broadly in the same location (say the Sundarbans). They can’t be seen in any Zoo or any other area, can be seen in the wild only (either in a rearing complex or in the river waters of Sundarbans etc). So I submitted my opinion for observation of such species only.
I couldn’t understand that the post went outside the focus. I apologize for my ignorance.
As, I have stated earlier that I personally am not much interested to know whether the hatchlings are wild or not, much concerned about their conservation only. So my posting needs no further reply and may please be ignored.
.

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There is a cultivar checkbox for a reason! I think it is just as important ecologocally to Identify and upload cultivars as well as native plants! There are actual projects on INaturalist that track cultivars, and you should be advocating their use, rather than trying to limit interaction with the app!

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Hypothetically, how would a user who doesn’t know what species they’re looking at determine whether a plant is established in a given area? Yes, consistent tagging always makes for better data. But isn’t that the whole idea behind community-based identification?

Personally, I think that in itself is a great way to learn. Posting an observation and then seeing that another user marked it as captive/cultivated is an interactive, hands-on way to both learn the system and also learn about the organisms you’re seeing in day-to-day life.

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Does anyone know of a similar app that doesn’t have so many rules ? Wish I had not donated today … this thread sucks all the enjoyment I had of using the app.

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Yes to this! But also they need to teach them to post one observation at a time.

Often they will have 5 pictures of all different species as one observation, and it happens enough times, and within the same group of students, that they must not be explaining to them how to properly document an observation.

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I’m sorry you have been made to feel this way! Please don’t be discouraged!
The amazing thing about iNaturalist is that by posting observations of maybe the insects in your garden or on a hiking trip, or that interesting looking plant you saw in those woods or that park you’re:
A. Helping scientists gather important information used for research.
B. Learninh to be more aware of the abundant and amazing plant and wildlife out there.

If you’re looking for more of an ID app then either using PictureThis or posting in a local FB gardening group might be better.

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There is Seek by iNaturalist, which you can use just for yourself without uploading anything to the database. The moment observations are uploaded, they are shared with a bunch of nature nerds who often have opinions about what and how data should be shared with them. Hence all the guidelines. A lot of these folks put a significant amount of time and effort into identifying and annotating observations to make them useful for research. On the other hand, a lot of casual users (e.g. city nature challenge, students) don’t provide research-quality observations, which can lead to frustration over time wasted trying to sort all those out. Hence all the recurring complaints about competitions and class projects on this forum. I would just take them with a grain of salt and don’t let them sap the joy out of it for you.

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But at least THIS problem now has an acceptable to iNat guidelined solution with a new DQA. My copypasta which pushes the obs to Casual with the DQA

Only one species per observation please

https://help.inaturalist.org/en/support/solutions/articles/151000171680-what-do-i-do-if-the-observation-has-multiple-photos-depicting-different-species-

Please don’t ID for only ONE of the multiple species - until the observer has split to single species.

New DQA Feb 2024 - evidence related to a single subject

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geographerdave,

Thanks for tracking these incongruities, especially the same photo in two places; I don’t know how that can happen if taken on the same phone. Perhaps if taken with a camera; which brings up the issue of marking captive perhaps more difficult.

I know that the Rhododendron issue is a strange one. I appreciate that the one submission left it at the Genus level.

As a homeowner who still has lovely old rhody’s I love capturing their first blooms. Since I am consciously doing this, I would remember to mark captive if uploaded to iNat.

As we know, our two NPSOPDX24May W flower bioblitz got set up slidghtly differently. Since the WILDFLOWER version, "Wild"flower version includes captives it has been almost aggravating to go through and see so many cultivars, like clematis. Actually, when identifying the observations, I am actually skipping them, and trying to mark captive if they aren’t already. That way they don’t reach Research grade, for the very reasons that you stated above.

It was an experiment to get people used to using iNaturalist, and at least seeing the family/genus similarities. But they should be marking them Captive/Cultivated for sure.

The other reason that I wanted to open it up for this particular BioBlitz was due to the increased Certification visits that happen at this time of year. Oftentimes, I am faced with plants that homeowners swear are guaranteed natives from their nursery or landscaper source. I use iNat to hone in on the plants authenticity, not always an easy task, with so many cultivars, or as we call them nativars.

Which brings me to back home to my association with the Native Plant Society of Oregon. Recently, as part of our Annual meeting field trips, I was surrounded with amazing meadows full of native species. If you check my Schalle observations you will see the abundance of species. However, since a few of these sites were revegetated and restored from the ground up, there was human cultivation involved. Are these truly natives, or not?

So many important questions. I truly appreciate all the responses and links that people posted. I will definitely go back and refer to some of them.

Until then, I will take time to stop and smell the flowers, be observant and as diligent as possible at determining the native from the non-natives.

Lecia

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30

Welcome to the forum! In response to your question about plants using in site restoration:

This doesn’t affect whether the plant is native or not - this is just a question of whether the species was originally found in a given location. If it is originally found there, even if cultivated, it is still native. Users can’t edit whether their observations are native/introduced etc - that is done for a given taxon at the place level on iNat.

In regards to whether these are cultivated or not, this largely depends on whether they are individuals planted by humans or not. A tree, if planted in a spot by humans, is always cultivated/not wild, regardless of how long it lives. So if these are perennial plants, they would be cultivated.

However, if these are naturally occurring offspring of a cultivated plant, they could be considered wild. There’s a little bit of a gray area in considering whether the individuals are spreading outside of a garden or not, but if the area is essentially untended (no watering, weeding, fertilizing), and they are annual plants reproducing on their own, most people would agree that they are wild.

The iNat guidelines for this are here: https://help.inaturalist.org/en/support/solutions/articles/151000169932-what-does-captive-cultivated-mean-

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@jon_sullivan Yes! I agree. IF teachers would tell their students that this is a very important step!

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I have been adding hybrid rhododendrons to my listings when I know the parentage. I usually start out in the description: “Not Wild.” Hybrid and then add the parentage which frequently are other hybrids. I’m hoping iNat’s AI will start learning to tell the difference between common hybrids and the natives.

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this is not currently possible, hybrid taxa are not suggested by the AI

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True, if the observer takes it that way. Two examples: I was asked to comment on a rhododendron obswervation on the east coast. Location was in a city park. It was identified as Rhododendron ponticum. Someone confirms that ID. Another person, I think correctly, says no, and changes it to Species level, and marks it cultivated. Someone marks it wild to counteract the not wild check - even though it is growing in a city park/garden.
2nd example. I college student taking a field course goes out and sees a rhododendron in a city park (University and location withheld!). Two people see it is not the local native rhododendron and say as much, and tag it as not wild since it is growing in a park. Student is irate, telling us to chill since at the end of the quarter the project, and observation, will be deleted anyway, so why care? I was surprised he wasn’t a bit more appreciative in people helping with his education. I know I am, in learning from all the many people who confirm my observations! I appreciate the ID’s.

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I didn’t think I was advocating to limit interaction, but rather help improve the quality of data that is on iNat. I realize that elementary and middle school students are beginning to learn about scientific principles and can be expected to go only so far, but it is also important for teachers to know what they are teaching, how to teach, and use the tools they are using. I would think a teacher would knowing something about their local plants before talking about them. I’ve had several instances of teachers identifying non-native/hybrid rhododendrons as native ones. And, I politely correct them.

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Thanks. Sorry to hear that, but thanks for letting me know. How then do we teach iNat’s AI to tell the difference between the many many hybrid rhododendrons and a single native species - especially when the colors are not the same?

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https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/when-could-hybrids-could-be-included-in-the-cv/43314/20
Closed, but you could ask a moderator to reopen it for you

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I’m sorry you found reading this thread reduces your enjoyment of iNaturalist. Nothing being discussed here is currently a rule of the site; there are very few of those. Policies iNaturalist does have are intentionally weighted towards encouraging people to explore and record nature.

All of us at some point recorded our first observations here. All of us make some early identification errors, maybe also misunderstand the annotation system (where you can mark plants as flowering, animals as adult/juvenile and other properties). People politely corrected me, and I gradually got better at recording observations in ways that were helpful to the identifiers. Here is a fungus where I was overconfident in naming the species, and an identifier corrected me. I asked for more information, and got links to two sources. This way we can all get better.

Identifiers are eager to help! They want to talk about lobed/unlobed leaves, hairy/scaly fern fronds, and clubbed/feathery antennae. But they have a lot to identify, so they will often only stop to explain if asked.

I hope you continue observing, using whatever tools make the experience joyful for you.

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I appreciate why that would be frustrating! Personally, I’m not a plant expert, so I don’t have a horse in this race as far as how categories should be defined.

Human communication, however, is my specialty! And this seems more like a communication issue than a process issue. (But that’s what us communication kids say about eveything, so don’t take my word for it :laughing:) If that’s not your jam, don’t feel obligated to read further!

Receiving new information or admitting confusion is an act of vulnerability. Just as many animals are known to hide their injuries so they aren’t targeted by predators, humans have a natural aversion to showing weakness. In post-industrial societies, many (but not all) of us are lucky enough to not have our survival at stake, of course! Instead, we may be worried that people will see us as unintelligent, as incapable, or as unlikable. If we don’t know and trust the person providing feedback, we may not be able to let down our guards enough to really consider their advice on its own merits. As many educators know, explaining technical things is only part of the job - just as much of it is spent building environments where learners are comfortable enough to learn!

At the end of the day, none of us are responsible for someone else’s errors - at least not those made by people on the internet we’ve never met! It’s lovely when people are willing to stop and explain, of course. But just as I’m sure you meant no disrespect by weighing in, I’m sure the other person meant no disrespect by turning down your feedback. In situations like this, I’ve gotten the best results by modeling the behavior I want to encourage: expressing respect for their wishes, assuming that their thought process is equally sensible as my own even if I don’t understand their conclusions, and not taking it personally.

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Beautifully put. Just to add a tiny bit though, we need to remember the educators are also people and this particular aspect:

can be especially terrifying when we’re in a role that props us up as an “expert”. Educators have to act as “experts” across a startling range of topics, and of course it’s impossible to actually know everything (as we all know, ironically). So some things are going to fall through the cracks – particularly details like individual plants – as the focus goes more towards other elements of teaching like

It’s a big job that, to be done well, requires patience and humility from all directions. Depending on the topic, teachers may need to learn as much as their students do.

That’s why I appreciate all of the effort I’ve seen people putting into iNat over the past few years. I’m sure it’s paid off, even if it feels like a bit of a treadmill as groups/classrooms/educators continue to make mistakes as users probably inevitably and forever will. However, if anyone can understand that frustration it’s probably educators… almost at the end of the school year here in the USA, time to get ready to greet a new set of students in a few months and do it all over again!

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