Moderation decisions about several posts in the LGBTQIA+ Thread

Right now. 1:56pm Eastern Standard Time , 5/31/2023 and Sedgequeen’s original post is STILL allowed to remain in the LGBTQIA thread. Why. Why has it not been removed entirely OR MOVED HERE LIKE EVERY SINGLE POST BY THE ACTUAL QUEER FOLX RESPONDING TO THE TRANSPHOBIA HAS BEEN MOVED

EDIT: it’s now been just about half an hour since I posted this (it’s now 2:17pm EST). I see that a staff member has been typing for around 20 minutes now.
Again.
you do not need to give us an essay. All you have to do is remove Sedgequeen’s response from the LGBTQIA thread. that’s the bare minimum at this point

4 Likes

To make it even more excruciatingly clear:

3 Likes

The Community Circle made a post yesterday explaining our decisions and how we arrived at them, and that includes keeping the two posts in question. Not everyone will agree with them, and some people were hurt by them, and I apologize that these decisions hurt you. If you want to express that, it’s fine, as long as they are not personal attacks and are adding something constructive to the conversation. And we haven’t hidden or removed criticism of the decisions. We’re trying to reach a place of understanding at some level, even if there’s strong disagreement.

I’m trying to keep the specific discussion of moderation decisions here for a few reasons:

  • it makes it easier to follow, it won’t be interrupted by other posts.

  • the response from iNaturalist is in this thread. It also links to the posts in question. No solution will be perfect, but the context is readily available.

  • if slow mode or temporary closure is deemed helpful, it can be applied to this thread and not the broader thread, which was a criticism about the decision to close the original thread over the weekend.

I’ve only moved posts that are primarily about moderation decisions. Pushback against/discussion about the original posts have not been moved.

5 Likes

Cool cool cool, cool.

That’s not a solution. the solution is, was, and always will be TO LISTEN TO YOUR TRANS AND QUEER USERS and remove the posts from the original thread.

3 Likes

So typing up a response for more than half an hour and yet not addressing any of the issues and continuing to ignore what we are telling you is the right thing to do.

literally. all. you. have. to . do. is remove the 2 posts from the original thread, That’s it. Refusing to remove the posts helps literally no one and only allowes everyone to see transphobia in action, and shows that inat staff will not only tolerate but allow bigotry to remain even when half a dozen users have told you it should be removed.

EDIT: No, putting this in Slow-Mode or closing it entirely will not erase the harmful decision you have made here . literally all you have to do is remove 2 posts from the LGBTQIA thread that show intolerance towards queer people. Removing the posts in the bare minumm.

Refusing to remove them, is only exposing more trans and queer users to bigotry and showing that no, Inaturalist does not care about queer people , despite launching a campaing to show off how inclusive you are for Pride Month, while literally explicitly, right here, showing exactly how UNSAFE you are for queer folk

3 Likes

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/misgendering-what-it-is-and-why-it-matters-202107232553

Misgendering: What it is and why it matters

July 23, 2021

As a cisgender woman with long hair and a closet full of dresses, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been misgendered by being called “he” or “sir.” Cisgender means I was assigned female at birth and identify as a woman. For people who are transgender and/or nonbinary (TNB), with a different gender identity than their assigned sex at birth, being misgendered may be a daily occurrence.

Why does misgendering matter?

Imagine a scenario in which you are called the wrong pronoun or honorific — for example Mr., Ms., or Mrs. — multiple times a day. It might happen in person, over the phone, or via email. Each time it happens, you must decide whether it is worth it to correct that person or easier to let it go. Imagine that you are repeatedly confronted with this experience and the decision of whether or not to correct it throughout the day — every day. As we know from research, and as I’ve also heard from the TNB people I know, this is both exhausting and demoralizing. When people are misgendered, they feel invalidated and unseen. When this happens daily, it becomes a burden that can negatively impact their mental health and their ability to function in the world.

If you are a cisgender person, you can lighten this burden for TNB people by using the right names, pronouns, and honorifics to refer to them, apologizing when you misgender someone, and correcting other people when they misgender someone.

How do you use the correct name, pronouns, and honorifics?

It’s simple: follow the person’s lead, or ask them. The name, pronouns, and honorifics that a person chooses to use for themselves communicate to others how they want to be seen and acknowledged. Using the correct terms for someone is a sign of respect and recognition that you see them as they see themselves.

If you knew someone previously as one gender and now they use a different name, pronouns, or honorifics, it can be hard to remember to use the right terms, especially if the person is gender-fluid and changes their pronouns more often. It can also be challenging to adjust to using gender-neutral pronouns like they and them, neopronouns like ze and zir, and unfamiliar honorifics, such as Mx (pronounced “mix”). But using the right terms is critically important for supporting and respecting TNB people.

A few tips and tools

  • Try not to make assumptions about a person’s name, pronouns, or honorifics based on how they look. The only way to know for sure what terms a person uses is to ask them in private (“What pronouns do you use?”). Asking someone in front of other people may unintentionally put them on the spot to disclose their identity to new people. You can ask anyone — cisgender or TNB — their name, pronouns, or honorifics.
  • Once you know what terms a person uses, the best way to make sure that you use the correct ones is to practice (this tool can help). Practice when they are in the room and when they are not in the room. Practice before you know you will see someone. Practice with others in your life: your cisgender friends, your spouse, your pet, your child. In our household, my wife and I try to use gender-neutral pronouns to refer to our preschooler’s toys and dolls so that we can practice using them ourselves. We even change the pronouns of characters in books that we read as another way to practice.
  • Another tip for remembering to use the correct name, pronouns, and honorifics is to pause before you speak. When we are stressed or busy, we are more likely to misgender people. Try to pause for a beat before you speak to make sure you are using the right terms to refer to someone. Similarly, reread emails before you send them to make sure you are not misgendering someone.
  • Be patient as you learn to use new terms and pronouns. It gets easier with practice and may become second nature over time.

How to apologize for misgendering someone

Misgendering will happen. What’s most important is how you handle it when it does. The best way to handle misgendering someone who is present is to apologize and try harder next time (“I’m sorry, I meant [correct name/pronoun/honorific]”). Keep your apology brief so that it doesn’t become about you and your mistake.

If you are corrected by someone else, try not to be defensive. Instead, simply respond with a thank you and a correction (“Oh, thank you — I’ll email [correct name/pronoun] about that”). This is an important step, even if the misgendered person is not present, so you can practice and so others can learn from your example. Any time you misgender someone, practice so you can do better next time.

How to correct misgendering when you hear or see it

As a cisgender colleague and supervisor to numerous TNB people, many of whom are nonbinary and use they/them pronouns, I often find myself in situations where I need to correct misgendering. I might say something like “I noticed you used she to refer to that person. Just to let you know, they use they/them pronouns.” Or I might write a note in a Zoom chat or in an email, “Just a friendly reminder that this person uses they/them pronouns.” Stepping forward this way lessens the burden of correcting misgendering for TNB people. It also models to others that a correction can be done in a friendly way, and is important for respecting and including TNB people.

How to use gender-neutral language and normalize pronouns

One way to avoid misgendering is to use gender neutral language. Here are some examples:

  • Instead of “boys and girls” or “ladies and gentlemen,” say “everyone.”
  • Instead of “fireman” or “policeman,” say “firefighter” or “police officer.”
  • Instead of “hey guys,” say “hey everyone” or “hey all.”

Try to pay attention to your language and find ways to switch to gender-neutral terms.

You can be mindful of your own pronouns and help other people be mindful by normalizing displays of pronouns. Here are some ways that I make my own pronouns (she/her) visible to others:

  • I list my pronouns in my email signature, in my Zoom name, and on the title page of presentations.
  • I wear a pronoun pin at work.
  • I introduce myself with my pronouns.

These actions signal to others that I am thinking about pronouns, and am aware that people may use different pronouns than might be expected from their appearance.

You may still make mistakes, but it’s important to keep practicing and trying to use the right terms! By using the correct names, pronouns, and honorifics to refer to people, apologizing when you misgender someone, and correcting other people when they misgender, you can support and respect the TNB people around you. This helps create a more inclusive world for everyone.

6 Likes

So is the Official iNAturalist Response literally just “too bad so sad it’s okay to misgender you if you’re Too Queer for cis people to respect?”

is that it? “We don’t consider people refusing to use your pronouns to be misgendering, and anyways this is your fault for being So Queer”?

3 Likes

(Posting from my account, but this is from the Community Circle.)

We all agree that using incorrect pronouns is inappropriate, and that intentionally misgendering someone will result in moderation action when brought to our attention. However, we on staff disagree that what sedgequeen said was misgendering in the context of this discussion, even though we agree it was inappropriate. We understand that some participants also think our response to that inappropriate behavior was inadequate and hurtful, and would instead like us to hide the posts. We have explained our interpretation of these events and our reasons for taking the actions we did in this post. These are judgment calls that staff made after considerable discussion and were based on the guidelines for community engagement both here in the Forum and on iNaturalist. All Forum participants have agreed to abide by these guidelines and by our moderation decisions.

Expressing your disappointment in these actions is fine, but the same participants making multiple posts asking that we alter our decision is not constructive and doesn’t add to the discussion. Our job is to, as best as possible, make this a place where people feel free to speak and come to a better understanding of each other. Even if there’s strong disagreement, such discussions can be constructive. If you aren’t satisfied with how we moderate discussions here, there are other forums and platforms available to discuss these issues.

10 Likes

I doubt many users would be comfortable with it either, because then you’d get a situation like on Facebook, where you never find out what was (allegedly) objectionable about your post.

The iNaturalist member in question does not identify as human. Please understand that. Sometimes, I’m not sure I wish to be a member of the human species either. If you read its description of the trauma it has suffered, its desire not to identify with the human species would make sense: every human in its life abused it.

You have just said that @nonbinary-naturalist doesn’t know when it has been misegendered. That is literally why it is so angry. Why can everyone but the staff see that?

8 Likes

@nonbinary-naturalist is now being threated with being banned for a week, for, get this, asking for 2 transphobic posts need to be removed from the LGBTQIA thread where Nonbinary-naturalist in particular is being targeted with misgendering . “The Community Circle” of exactly 5 people who clearly do not understand the nuances at play here in a world currently filling up with death threats and deadly laws against trans people insisting they will not change their decision is not reassuring in any way shape or form about just how “inclusive” inaturalist is, no matter how many rainbow icons they start posting tomorrow for Pride Month.

Some serious sensitivity and inclusivity training is needed here, with this being the response to trans and queer folk facing bigotry in the thread literally dedicated to being a safe space for queer folk of inaturalist.

10 Likes

Can we hold off on hiding posts unless it’s overt violations of the rules? After this whole post by the mods about how we have to leave things visible even though they are disagreeable, it seems really odd that suddenly a bunch of posts are hidden. Muting someone who is upset about being mistreated doesn’t seem appropriate and while i didnt see most of the muted posts, it probably pales in comparison to other things on the forum and site that are not muted. I know from the few i did see they were way less problematic and way less a violation of the rules than harassment i’ve seen directed towards myself or others on the site or forum which the moderators and certain curators insisted were not inappropriate. Why is a marginalized group having their posts muted where other groups were not?

15 Likes

Some hidden posts were direct attacks and were hidden for that reason. Others were repeats of arguments already made by the users who posted them that weren’t adding anything new, or were back and forths that weren’t addressing the topic.

There are still plenty of visible posts where I think everyone got their points across. Hopefully with slow mode on, the conversation can have some time to breathe.

3 Likes

Maybe that’s because people aren’t being listened to. Just because the staff explains their decision, that doesn’t make it the right decision. I don’t think you understand that you have done irreperable damage to the trust in our community. Doubling down only reinforces the damage.

10 Likes

wow, that’s a lot to wake up to.

I have a great deal of replies and feedback I’d like to make, but I mostly won’t right now. but I will point out: we want to remove content that is malicious. not content that is wrong, misinformed, or controversial.

I ask that, if you must draw a boundary between “us” and “them” you include people who are at least trying or who are also the targets. fascists won’t differentiate between a transmisc lesbian and an it/its person who insists everyone must be perfect all the time. we’re all getting carted off to jail, or lynched, or worse. the same. I want to strengthen bonds within the community despite our differences, or else in our anxiety and fear we will consume each other. I wish the world were perfect. I wish everyone had perfect empathy and infinite time to learn, and never, ever did anything that would cause another being pain. but that world doesn’t exist. I am sure I also have much to learn, but being personally attacked has put a bitter taste in my mouth, I’ll admit.

please… just love each other.

18 Likes

Disclaimer - I am actually transgender. And old and jaded enough to know what is coming.

Right now, Bob McTurdbucket, a hypothetical, raging transphobe and bigot who may or may not bear resemblence to another person, real or fictional, would be rubbing his hands with glee as he browses this discourse.

Decked in his cheetos powder-flecked T-shirt and stubble and lit only by the glow of his screen in his mum’s basement that smells of stale Mountain Dew, he starts screenshotting large sections of this and the original thread, cherrypicking bits at will, and digging through the profiles of participants, to create his magnum opus: A two hour long Youtube scree titled ‘BREAKING: TRANS (insert slurs here) BOYCOTT NATURAL HISTORY SITE FOR IDENTIFYING THEM AS HUMAN!!! WTFOMGMEGALOLZ XDXDXD’.

After a marathon recording session, he broadcasts it to his 500k followers, of whom 2k register on here just to harass and troll moderators and users alike.

I don’t agree with either side here entirely, only with iNaturalist’s broader mission to catalogue biodiversity, a mission that in my opinion is even greater than that of even my rights as a queer person. Controversial, I know. It is a mission that unites people from many different political backgrounds, ethnicities and nationalities, and attitudes towards us, because biodiversity is crucial to our own, our entire world’s survival.

So I do care when people say and do things that make it difficult for others to continue on this mission, and feel safe and respected enough to do so. Right now, I do not feel that the actions I have seen cross that threshold. That may not always be the case in the future.

6 Likes

The number of removed posts (without even an option to “view ignored content”) far exceeds the two posts that were requested to be removed.

“Assume that people mean well” only applies in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Note: this post was flagged and hidden, even though it did not contain any personal attacks. It still doesn’t so let’s see if it gets flagged again.

3 Likes

But. It feels like victim blaming to me. And I am, not the victim.

6 Likes

I’m going to push back against the “surveillance state” comparison. First, this is a privately run venue, not the government. Second, when everyone joins they are given a link to the guidelines, which state

In order to maintain our community, moderators reserve the right to remove any content and any user account for any reason at any time.

That’s a power that’s been used sparingly for the four years this forum’s been in existence, but it’s there when necessary.

Looking at these threads, if we were an authoritarian state then most of the posts here would have been hidden and users suspended for being critical of us, but that’s not the case. What we’re trying to do is moderate the discussion and that does include removing malicious attacks and posts that don’t move the conversation forward, as well as using tools like slow mode to encourage thoughtful posts and let everyone have a chance to speak. Negative pile-ons and back and forths between a handful of users aren’t productive.

We’re humans, and not perfect, but we’ve tried to make our process clear so that even if someone disagrees - and these are situations where reasonable disagreement is understandable - they’ll at least know why and can decide if they want to continue participating or not.

13 Likes

people can listen to you, and disagree any way. It is not logically sound to say that the only sign of someone’s having listened to you is that they then do what you tell them to do.

I agree with yalls core ideals, but as an individual I believe that it is impossible to force someone to change. you can explain, you can beg, you can scream, but you cannot forcibly make anyone have a belief or do something… short of actual force.

I’ve been through all sorts of hell and abuse myself. I’m not saying that as an excuse, I’m saying that in an attempt to show that I do understand, emotionally, viscerally, where you may be right now.
I used to stand where you are, terrified to my very core by the very real and powerful forces that are coming to bear on queer people in the West. I have had times where I viewed any person who was not perfectly aligned with my values as supporting the enemy. but that’s paranoia, anxiety and ptsd talking. if you want to live outside the confines of safe spaces, you have to learn to trust a little. believe they mean well even when they’re royally fucking up. you have to meet people where they are. yelling will only scare them away.

there’s a lot of people in these threads who don’t even know what dysphoria is. people who don’t know the 101. I appreciate the links to basic resources. and I agree – and have stated as such – that the problematic posts are misgendering. but the cost of interacting with a cishetnormative world is patience.
the mod team here are not DeSantis’s little cronies come to take you to jail. they’re people who believe yall have the right to be treated with grace and kindness. but they’re also beholden to their own bosses, to capitalism that makes it impossible to risk your job by snapping back, by many forces, and I know they are actively doing what they can to learn and improve.

also, a lot of private messages are being exchanged in an attempt to promote growth and conversation. it may shock you, but some people log in only once a day… every other day… less?
this also includes me, behind the scenes, talking to the other mods, explaining terms they don’t know, even pushing back on some of their decisions, and asking them to have compassion for people like nonbinary-naturalist. it’s scared and in pain and those feelings are completely real, completely valid. and, it has also posted quite a few things here which are inappropriate for the forum. both those things can be true at once.

as for the flags… long term clean up will have to be done, to ensure fairness and consistency. a lot of stuff is getting flagged. a lot of people are getting mad. and only staff are paid to do this, and even they have very limited time and are in USA timezones.

when Zooey Zephyr called out her Republican colleagues for having blood on their hands, she was being literal – lives are at stake in Montana, and lives have been lost. strong language was more than warranted, especially as she knew her words were falling on deaf and hateful ears. she was thrown out of the chambers and told she was inciting a riot. for that.
that is not where we are. when you speak on this forum, the people who are listening do care. the stakes are real, but they are about hurt feelings. yes, hurt feelings that worsen existing pain and trauma. but lashing back against people who at their core want you to be happy, healthy, and free… is not the same. flagged or hidden comments or temporary suspension from a forum are not the same as laws that deny you basic human rights. and I assure you, the mod team is using a light hand here.

the world is messy and complicated and I swear to you I am doing what I hope will create the greatest safety and well-being of my community. I promise. I don’t want to throw anyone under any bus. You can be angry at me, and you can say anything you want about me. I chose my name, Astra, from “per aspera ad astra”, because I want to be a source of light and love and compassion. there’s so much darkness and fear in the world. I’ve been through so much fear and pain. I’m going to do what I can for every queer person out there. and every marginalized person, including those who are neurodivergent, people of colour, everyone. I didn’t only choose “astra”, I chose the whole phrase because I too acknowledge the tortures I underwent – per aspera, through suffering. I know I’m going on, and I know I’m a mod and whatever, but I swear to you I do care about each of you and I think of you as a complete person. To the best of my ability.

17 Likes