Maybe just have a policy that any photo that includes imagery, including hand gestures, that could be interpreted as obscene or offensive is subject to deletion.
Let’s say some divers off of the Maldives get a nice photo of a scarcely photographed marine species. It’s the best photo of the species ever taken, but the diver in the back of the photo is giving a thumb’s up. He’s an American, and he’s just expressing his happiness with finding the species (since you can’t see his face due to the diving mask). In some Middle Eastern countries, a thumb’s up is considered rude, equivalent to or worse than the middle finger. Should this observation just be deleted?
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To add to the uses of it, the “OK” symbol is also the letter F in American Sign Language (and I’m guessing others, but I’m not familiar with others). It is also used in many other signs, such as the zero/nothing sign, in the signs for “definition”, “function”, “fundamental”, “coin”, “exchange/swap”, “fruit”, and many others. It’s not super relevant, but I’m just throwing it out there. Make sure to exclude deaf people form your photos! or at least make sure to tell them to shut up! :P
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Have you taken a look at the flag discussion? I was not in fact referring to the discussion on the comment, although it’s nicely rolling along on the comment, now, too. Thanks!
I didn’t mean to imply it was a hate symbol. It’s just the discussion on the appropriateness of one gesture made me wonder about other types of inappropriate gestures. I hope you don’t think I was trying to measure one against the other or to in any way diminish the seriousness of potential hate symbols.
Seems to that if the species pictured is a great photo than the posting account should be asked to remove the gesture in a photo editor and repost it. Blur, healing, vignette, or crop mechanisms could potentially handle this.
Or it could be refused to be acknowledged since anyone that would do something like that is more interested in getting a rise out of people than they are anything else.
Which is exactly what I asked the user to do, with no response so far. (Given the number of notifications the user must have received, with all the kindly confirming identifications, it’s not really plausible they haven’t looked yet.)
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Well, if there an app only user than they’re probably not getting the notifications, maybe they’re just not that into the site, or they’re intentionally ignoring the requests.
Either way I don’t think the data set would be all that diminished of one picture got taken down.
The user has asked how to crop the observation photo, but since it was added using Seek, which I don’t use, I’m at a bit of a loss to assist.
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Its also been used since 15th BCE
The more arguing and talking about it dosent this just continue making it a hate symbol why not let it die out. This isn’t exactly the same thing but Morgan Freeman, said that having a Black History Month was “ridiculous” and that the best way to end racism today is to “stop talking about it.” Maybe the best way to end this nonsense is to stop talking about. Then it will fade away like a planet getting sucked into a black hole. Every time this comes up its like a life line to giving this symbol the recognition of hate. Now every time this symbol is banned it reaffirms to people its a hate symbol. And with the anti defamation league labeling it as a hate symbol. One website saying one thing dosent make it gospel. Some other things labeled hate symbols The iron cross, Despite being used by the current German Airforce, 100%, 13, 14, pepe, moon man, White Lives Matter but some how not Black Lives Matter etc. I don’t know a single person who’d see 100% and say that’s offensive. If every time an awful racist made the OK symbol and people just scoff, or are like whatever. Then the means of spreading a message of hate is blocked.
Also this is the ADLs response. Has the simple thumb-and-forefinger ‘OK’ hand gesture become a common white supremacist hand sign? Not quite, but it has become a popular left hand gesture used by people across several segments of the right and far right—including some actual white supremacists—who generally use it to trigger reactions. […] Only if the gesture occurs with left hand in context with other clear indicators of white supremacy can one draw that conclusion.
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Welp reading wikipedia i just learned The gesture is used by doctors to test functionality of the anterior interosseous nerve and seek indications of median nerve palsy in the hands. When performing the test, a patient makes the OK gesture with both hands. If the circle formed by one hand appears more pinched or less round than the other, it may indicate weakness in the nerve.
A similar medical test, known as Froment’s sign, is used to test for palsy on the ulnar nerve. To perform the test, a patient holds a piece of paper between their forefinger and thumb, and the examiner attempts to pull it out of the patient’s grip. If ulnar nerve palsy is present, the patient will have difficulty maintaining their hold and may compensate by flexing the thumb to add more pressure.
Apparently an Indian Company uses it in their logo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piramal_Group
Can read if you want https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture There are so many different meanings and uses.
I really dislike these kinds of straw man arguments. It’s patently obvious the people who are posting this stuff are not advertising their Indian services company employer or demonstrating how they can pass a particular medical test etc.
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@kitty12, he would have to edit the photo outside of the app and resubmit it through the ‘pictures’ tab in the app. It would show up in the database as a duplicate encounter though (I think).
OR
This person could be encouraged to resubmit through the website as well.
Either way they will have to edit it first. Snapseed is the best mobile editor I have heard about.
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I think you misunderstood zoology123’s point (which, ironically, would make your own argument a straw man argument, lol). I don’t want to speak for zoology123, but MY point, or the point that I would get from that comment, is that the meaning behind the “OK symbol” is far from universal, so having a blanket policy about the treatment of such a symbol is absurd.
NOBODY is saying that deliberately insulting people or spreading hate messages is acceptable behavior in any way shape or form. What those of us arguing against all this fuss are saying is that the meaning of symbols is extremely subjective (if it’s even there), so there should not be blanket policies regarding the treatment of specific symbols. Cases of alleged offensive behavior should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, and the criterion for whether any “disciplinary action” should be taken is entirely dependent on the intention of the people engaged in such behavior. I am arguing for nuance, giving people the benefit of the doubt, and for being inclusive (by acknowledging the fact that your own values and interpretations aren’t universal, and should not be shoved down the throats of people from other social, linguistic, cultural, or ethnic backgrounds). I am arguing AGAINST the provincial, cynical, and absolutist interpretation of people’s behavior, and against the use of simplistic, blanket rules that utterly fail to consider context and instead force everyone to abide by the views of a small minority of people.
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I think you summed up my feelings for this almost exactly. The OK symbol has so many different uses around the world i truly think its ethically wrong to just remove it. You would be hurting more people than the few peoples feelings your possibly helping. Of course this is more for outside of inaturalist. Here the symbol dosent add anything. But by removing it your first going against the Anti Defamation Leagues Recommendations, your reinforcing the idea its hateful, and your probably just going to antagonize the trolls.
And @cmcheatle a lot of those photos of the OK symbol on INaturalist lack any substantial evidence of Racism. For most it just shows people being edgy or just with bad humor. find an INaturalist observation with a swastika and the ok symbol or a user with racist comments or whatever and remove them. I honestly think a better alternative would be a system to remove valueless photos. like peoples faces, arms, cars, paper elephants etc. Like if this was a kkk robe that is 100% a hate symbol. But the ok symbol is not a full hate symbol. I think the ADLs recommendations should be followed for the site. https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture
According to ADL
Has the simple thumb-and-forefinger “OK” hand gesture become a common white supremacist hand sign? Not quite, but it has become a popular gesture used by people across several segments of the right and far right—including some actual white supremacists—who generally use it to trigger reactions, or what they would describe as “trolling the libs.”
https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture
I’m closing this topic for a few hours. I understand there are strong feelings here and while I don’t think anything has gone really overboard, I want to keep it from getting there.
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